Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft to Cut 9k Workers in Second Wave of Major Layoffs

bloomberg.com

191–200 of 215 posts

Re: Microsoft to Cut 9k Workers in Second Wave of Major Layoffs

#191

Microsoft's most recent quarterly numbers, for those interested: - Revenue was $69.6 billion and increased 12% - Operating income was $31.7 billion and increased 17% (up 16% in constant currency) - Net income was $24.1 billion and increased 10% How can you justify needing layoffs when you made $24B in net income on $70B in revenue?? I guess $24B and a 10% YoY increase is almost failing?

> How can you justify needing layoffs when you made $24B in net income

Cut costs and make 25B next quarter! Cut more in US and hire in India. Make 27B in a quarter next year!

Re: Microsoft to Cut 9k Workers in Second Wave of Major Layoffs

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what i learned: the person buying software/services at many enterprises cares very little whether the thing being purchased is actually any good or not. They either pick based on some brand awareness (who doesn't know who IBM used to be, and who Microsoft is nowadays?), or they defer to someone else in the org...and that "some other senior leader person" in the org may or may not be the proper person to make t…

This is also how the contracting firms maintain business. Accenture, Deloitte, et al are some of the only businesses that are "trusted partners" for the big F500s* or the only firms that are sufficiently capitalized/insured etc etc such that they can "win" the big jobs. Quality and such doesn't matter much--if you and I could spin up and LLC tomorrow with the ability to deliver something at 10x the quality in half th…

Oh, you're 100% correct about these big "trusted partners"! At my current and previous dayjobs, no matter if you had employees who were top experts in their fields, if some nitwit from MaKenzie, Accenture Deloitte, etc. says that the sky is brown, then the enterprise's senior leaders will ignore the inhouse expert, and just blindly believe that the sky is brown per whatever these "consultants" say. I've had colleagues use terms like "the CEO whisperer" or "the CTO whisperer" to describe some of these folks from the "big consultant" firms...which i find very accurate. And you know what? In like 85% of the time, after these big firms are done with a project, its the biggest pile of awfulness in so many ways! And, the employees and long-term contractors are left to fix the mess, and keep managing whatever spaghetti these "consultants" left behind. I have nothing against the individual human beings who are hired by these big firms. They're just trying to earn their living. But, the leaders from these firms sell them off as "top industry experts" (when half the time they're quite junior in experience and know-how). Plus, the leaders of the enterprise who are procuring these big firms simply want to throw cheap bodies at a problem or project, but instead of hiring employees, they get seduced by the "senior leader whisperers" from these big firms.

And then, after any big project is "done" (regardless if there was a colossal mess left behind by the consultant team), the same senior leader who hired the awful big firm gets the promotion or moves on...and the employees are left holding the bag. What's worse, the enterprise's remaining leaders threaten the employees to keep managing the mess - "keep working hard, or you'll be replaced by AI...".

It feels all like an environment of snake oil, and magician's smoke and mirrors. Sad, really.

Re: Microsoft to Cut 9k Workers in Second Wave of Major Layoffs

#193
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With remote work? good luck. Unions only work where all the work is localized. I'm in tech and I would never join a union. Why do I need collective bargaining to set my salary (and not give me raise until it's collectively raised) when I can bargain for my own raises? In addition to this, unions don't bode well for innovation and technology. Look at the Taxicab unions. We could only get a cab in person or through the…

> Look at the Taxicab unions. We could only get a cab in person or through the phone, because the unions had no incentive to innovate. It look a non-union startup to push them to actually make it convenient and better for the customer. OTOH, gig drivers are being paid below minimum wage, with no benefits, no retirement plan, and no stability of work. As a customer, yay technology and UX! But as a human, it's objectiv…

"OTOH, gig drivers are being paid below minimum wage, with no benefits, no retirement plan, and no stability of work."

Gig work is not supposed to be stable, have benefits, or retirement. It's supposed to be there for someone to make extra money. I know lots of people that used it to make extra money and now can't make anything because of new regulations.

If you wanted to drive a Taxi in NYC, it was a million dollar investment for a medallion and the whole system was a monopoly that shutdown any new advancements.

How was this better for humans or customers?

Re: Microsoft to Cut 9k Workers in Second Wave of Major Layoffs

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The layoffs are mostly in the sales division as pointed out by other commentators. H1B filings most likely would not be in sales.

How does that even work? You take away thousands of people in the market selling (presumably these were enterprise sales, not low end consumer stuff that "sells itself") and what happens to revenue? This strikes me as classic bean-counter logic that sees all sales and marketing effort as pure cost and assumes it can be eliminated while simultaneously viewing revenue as a constant, with no relationship between the two…

Maybe they think the enterprise software growth opportunities are drying up? When youre already in every single conglomerates tech stack theres no one else to sell to sop you dont need as many salespeople.

Re: Microsoft to Cut 9k Workers in Second Wave of Major Layoffs

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also how the contracting firms maintain business. Accenture, Deloitte, et al are some of the only businesses that are "trusted partners" for the big F500s* or the only firms that are sufficiently capitalized/insured etc etc such that they can "win" the big jobs. Quality and such doesn't matter much--if you and I could spin up and LLC tomorrow with the ability to deliver something at 10x the quality in half th…

Oh, you're 100% correct about these big "trusted partners"! At my current and previous dayjobs, no matter if you had employees who were top experts in their fields, if some nitwit from MaKenzie, Accenture Deloitte, etc. says that the sky is brown, then the enterprise's senior leaders will ignore the inhouse expert, and just blindly believe that the sky is brown per whatever these "consultants" say. I've had colleague…

You've described my experience exactly.

The amount of money that "enterprises" will spend in order to avoid hiring actual competent people is staggering. They quite literally spend orders of magnitude more than just hiring people, always end up with mixed results and have no ownership over the things they depend on.

I've also seen several cases where these companies maintain a "predatory" relationship: they build some big convoluted Thing of dubious quality and utility, and then, as a result of the hiring company refusing to invest in employees of any expertise, they either pay the same company to "maintain" or "add features" to The Thing, or worse, they hire another outsourcing firm to do that.

My favorite experience was working with a large F500 that outsourced (effectively) 100% of their IT--the internal staff were basically "yappers", people that just attending meetings and said things like "we'll have to ensure this meets security standards" but did no actual implementation work and had no intimacy with anything developed.

The irony, of course, is that attempting to get answers about any of the complex stuff that their employer ostensibly owned was an exercise in futility: "oh you have to ask the 'platform'/'data'/whatever team (another subcontractor or several)". I was under the impression no actual employee at the company knew, in any material way, how any of the stuff the business depended on worked, beyond whatever prepared slide deck they were given.

They'd have zero useful technical input on any solution, only occasionally quipping with some sort of canned platitudes: "we use dotnet internally", right, sure.

Utterly bizarre, and not, I fear, unique.

Re: Microsoft to Cut 9k Workers in Second Wave of Major Layoffs

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it'll get that bad. My mostly uninformed worse case estimate is a large portion of these companies become something like the "body shops" (I believe MS has some association with Accenture, so that'd fit) where they maintain a minimal US presence for (mostly) customer facing "sales"/"high touch" positions so they have someone to broker deals and contracts with the (often clueless, IME) F500s, and then ou…

This assumption is a pretty Western view, in that you assume that SV/USA still has technological primacy. I believe this to be generally true, but leadership has no incentive or reason it should. And if I'm being frank, there may be some bias here because it seems like companies with indian CEOs are offshoring at a much faster rate than non indian CEOs (e.g. Google vs Netflix). And non core roles could effectively be…

For sure, I think your projection is a worse case scenario, one that's totally in the realm of possibility.

In "non-growth" times (i.e the era we're in now (post ZIRP) and probably for the foreseeable future, LLMs being the exception), very little outside the major revenue generators is probably "core" roles.

Re: Microsoft to Cut 9k Workers in Second Wave of Major Layoffs

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not brainwashing though, how to properly regular this is as old as Adam Smith right? Union leader is one approach. But really if the US had a proper safety net, universal healthcare, and progressive taxes on capital accumulation, layoffs in OPs framing would not be nearly as bad. The real issue here isnt the layoffs. Its that the top are pulling up profits, theres no quality healthcare for the unemployed (and get…

Smith actually wrote against this very concept. The idea that a corporation's only responsibility is to its shareholders is relatively recent.

I dont think you are wrong but i think thats leaving out a key, for me THE key take aways i got out of it. ie Smith didn’t imagine capitalism working without regulation. His whole model assumes a strong legal and institutional framework to keep markets fair and socially useful.

Re: Microsoft to Cut 9k Workers in Second Wave of Major Layoffs

#198

For the most part, I'm indifferent to layoffs. Companies over hire and then course correct. It's part of the game. But for MSFT, it rubs me the wrong way. In the past 5 years, their stock has soared (150% on stock and doubled in valuation). They are insanely profitable ($82B profit). They are diverse (no existential business risk). The fact that they are unceremoniously laying off 30K of the people that helped them g…

1. Over hiring isn't really a thing here. They knew what they were doing and knew they could just kick people out if things changed. I don't like that term to describe the situation.

2. That's how it is for most of these high profile layoffs. They are profitable but do layoffs so they can report record revenue later. It's not about "we can't afford workers", it's about blatant greed in 90% of cases this decade.

3. Yeah, talent retention is gone this decade. They don't care about growth or fostering future labor.

Re: Microsoft to Cut 9k Workers in Second Wave of Major Layoffs

#199
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thinking about the middle class in the previous generation, it was unions that effectively ensured a labor job meant a secure future. I wonder if that's the solution (again). It is, and they are. It’s why Reagan fired ATC strikers and blackballed them. It’s why private enterprise stockpiled machine guns and chemical weapons against strikers back in the Gilded Age. It’s why companies will spend billions to block Uni…

Unions are not effective when there's such a surplus of labor and people willing to break lines. It wont work in today's tech labor market.

>people willing to break lines.

It's even simpler than this. We call is "collective bargaining" for a reason. If we don't collect... We lose all the power.

But my country's been so individualistic and no one seems to trust anyone anymore. No wonder we're struggling. We can't even come together to say "hey we need better minumum wage" after the longest drought of not raising it.

Re: Microsoft to Cut 9k Workers in Second Wave of Major Layoffs

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it would. There are way more employed tech people than unemployed. Imagine if every single person at a company like MS up and went on strike tomorrow. Could MS replace them all with scabs? Sure, with enough time and money. But it wouldn't happen overnight, and things would get very dire if not company ruining in the meantime.

With remote work? good luck. Unions only work where all the work is localized. I'm in tech and I would never join a union. Why do I need collective bargaining to set my salary (and not give me raise until it's collectively raised) when I can bargain for my own raises? In addition to this, unions don't bode well for innovation and technology. Look at the Taxicab unions. We could only get a cab in person or through the…

I work in games. Salary is honestly fine for the most part, even if lower than traditional tech.

I just want to not be laid off every 3 years becsuse some executive wants numbers to look 1% better for shareholders. I'd gladly join a union that ensures there's proper warning for layoffs and proper payout if it goes through.

>Look at the Taxicab unions.

So you're complaining about regulation because unregulated tech was convinent for you for a few years? That thinking is how we got here.

Post reply on HN