Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian • Hacker News Board

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#71

Post by ta12121 » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 4:57 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #50

dr_ wrote: post #29

A few years ago I had traveled to India, and had plans to leave the country for a week then return. Big mistake. I was advised to go to the Indian embassy in the destination country to get permission to come back. I did so, they took my passport and told me to come back the following day, hence delaying my travels within that country by a day. I returned to India ok. When i was leaving India I was asked why I had not…

>>I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again. Sad, I am Indian too. Born, raised in India, Bangalore. The process you describe is something that every 'Indian' here goes through. I was a little taken aback when you said 'I am Indian mind you'. I think you refer to the legal status. Because although I agree that its painful- Being an Indian you experienced wha…

Grandparent was pointing out that the extra procedures were not due to his being an immigrant or tourist. Most countries have somewhat fewer hoops for their own citizens than foreigners. He wasn't asking for preferential treatment, he was surprised how bad the default treatment was.

And saying he's not really an Indian because he lives in the US is kind of petty.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#72

Post by sifar » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 5:09 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #43

quanticle wrote: post #27

I would disagree. India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state. These regulations are not meant to frighten or intimidate people. As the article points out, they're so ineffectual as to be laughable. Police states tend to be quite a bit more brutal than that. No, all of these regulations, permits and rules are classic hallmark of bureaucratic empire building. All those Internet cafés now need to be insp…

India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state. Even that is interesting. It shows us that bureaucracy (and, I'd say, failure to respect one's property rights) can become indistinguishable from a police state.

True. At present India is a deliberate sloppy bureaucracy but that is because the government promotes it that way. India had become a police state for a brief period in 1975 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_%28India%29), but the people overcame that. Interestingly, economic & political situation is somewhat similar today.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#73

Post by vishaldpatel » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 5:15 PM UTC

smutticus wrote: post #45

India is not a police state. India is a dysfunctional state only made functional through continuous petty bribery. Historically police states like Nazi Germany or Mao's China operated by being well organized at all levels of society. India is absolutely not well organized at all levels of society. Instead India seems optimized for the petty bribe seeking bureaucrat. It's not the all knowing police state. It's the dis…

Why didn't your employer get it done for you? If it was a big firm then they'd have someone who knows their way around the system to get things like this done efficiently.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#74

Post by phusuke » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 6:08 PM UTC

I have a problem with people who like to call India simply a dysfunctional state. What does that even mean? The author here is hypothesizing a reason for the dysfunction. Its just a hypothesis but its still well ahead of calling it simply broken. Also I believe 'police state' doesnt imply big-brother-esque behavior on the part of the govt. Even unending policing and related rules can be called that. Far too many people especially Indians take comfort in calling it 'simply dysfunctional' thereby oversimplifying the situation and hence not bothering to find out what can be done to improve.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#75

Post by ramkalari » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 6:16 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #38

ramkalari wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Manmohan Singh gets far too much credit for the reforms. Those who have studied Indian Economics will know that liberalization was forced on us. We were close to bankruptcy in 1991 and the IMF forced the reforms on us in exchange for a bailout. Unfortunately, having branded him as an architect of our reforms, we have also set our expectations very high.

What makes you think I don't know? The balance of payments crisis was a long time brewing, and books have been written to do it justice. Heres how it went - Rajiv Gandhi was murdered in 1991. That year a "stop gap" intellectual was made Prime Minister, The now un-lamented Narasimha Rao. He chose Manmohan Singh, a quiet intellectual to be his Finance Minister. Manmohan was the planner, and Rao the force that allowed h…

I was a big fan of Manmohan Singh and used to be a vocal supporter. I had high hopes too that we finally have someone who understands what India needs but his leadership through these scandals has been poor, to put it mildly. In any case, when it came to liberalization, he had no other option. The previous budgets used expenditure control and increased exports as a strategy to solve the BOP crisis but it failed miserably. He couldn't have ignored the IMF and continued a policy that had failed for the last 4-5 years. In some ways, the previous finance ministers were already taking small steps towards that path by encouraging public sector disinvestment. I'm sure any other Finance Minister would have taken the same decision. On the topic of execution, his team did a great job. However, the Indian government always steps up when it is in a serious crisis. Whether it is Kargil/ Commonwealth/Tsunami/Terror attacks, we manage to unite in a crisis and find a way to get things done. So, should we start calling Shelia Dixit the "architect" of Commonwealth Games. I'm not so sure.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#76

Post by irahul » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 6:17 PM UTC

eshvk wrote: post #70

kamaal wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again. Sad, I am Indian too. Born, raised in India, Bangalore. The process you describe is something that every 'Indian' here goes through. I was a little taken aback when you said 'I am Indian mind you'. I think you refer to the legal status. Because although I agree that its painful- Being an Indian you experienced wha…

I am confused: Are you actually saying that asserting one's Indian heritage means that one has to accept all the shit that happens due to an incompetent completely broken system?

> one's Indian heritage

Depending on your perception, either there is no such thing as India heritage or it's so broad that it's bordering on being indistinguishable from non-Indian heritage.

1. We are talking about a country of over a billion people who are descendants of different races. Aryans, dravidians(I believe aryan invasion is under dispute but there are more people leaning towards it). I don't know what race the north-east folks are but they are different.

2. We follow differing, and sometimes totally different cultures. North and south India has different cultures; more so with north-east folks.

3. We belong to different religions with different practices. Hindu, Muslim, Sikhs, Christians, and a lot of other minorities. Owing to the huge population, even the minorities aren't really minorities. The number of Christians in India, for example, is larger than the number of Christians in Australia.

4. We have a vast economic divide. People on the peak and right of bell curve have totally different lifestyle than those on the left. People who are on the extreme right aren't any different from their else-world counterparts.

5. Even among the same income group, the lifestyle differs depending on the location. A person earning 25k/month in a small city and a person earning 25k/month in Bangalore isn't the same thing.

6. Though the low-lives tend to go up in arms every few weeks ostensibly trying to protect the Indian culture, there is no sole authority for deciding what constitutes Indian culture.

If we talk about Hinduism, it has 4 vedas, 108 upnishads, and number of other books. There is no canonical book and many a times the scriptures are contradictory and/or ambiguous. More importantly, Hinduism is based more on orthopraxy than orthodoxy. Many a times courts have quashed bullshit "against Hinduism" litigations ruling that fucking read the scriptures, quote us the exact lines, make sure other scriptures don't say differently; or else don't waste the court's time.

Now one might say that most of my points are about lifestyle, and don't represent Indian heritage per se. I would say lifestyle and companions are a big variable in shaping a person's values and viewpoints. Heritage, as in inheritance, depends on who you are inheriting from, and this hypothetical Indian "who" doesn't have a canonical definition.

Personally, I was trying to look at myself and find out things which would constitute Indian heritage. I couldn't think of anything. Would somebody help me out with what constitutes Indian heritage?

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#77

Post by intended » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 6:35 PM UTC

ramkalari wrote: post #75

intended wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think I don't know? The balance of payments crisis was a long time brewing, and books have been written to do it justice. Heres how it went - Rajiv Gandhi was murdered in 1991. That year a "stop gap" intellectual was made Prime Minister, The now un-lamented Narasimha Rao. He chose Manmohan Singh, a quiet intellectual to be his Finance Minister. Manmohan was the planner, and Rao the force that allowed h…

I was a big fan of Manmohan Singh and used to be a vocal supporter. I had high hopes too that we finally have someone who understands what India needs but his leadership through these scandals has been poor, to put it mildly. In any case, when it came to liberalization, he had no other option. The previous budgets used expenditure control and increased exports as a strategy to solve the BOP crisis but it failed miser…

His current leadership is poor, mainly since there is little of it, as I stated in the grand parent post. So we are in agreement.

We agree for most things except the last.

No, other fin mins could have stopped short. As I pointed out in my post, this went on for 2 years. Once the BoP crisis was over, and the gulf war induced oil shock was gone, they had no reason to stay on course.

Check a chart on the price of oil for the periods under question, they stabilize pretty quick.

more credit should be given to PV N Rao, who was the driving force and the source of courage behind Manmohan.

Many people fail during crises. Just because some people step up when the chips are down doesn't mean that their achievement was ordained. It means they had the mettle and is actually more praiseworthy for their ability under pressure.

This is also why I brought up Russia. They opened up their markets and it was eaten alive by corruption the way a wolf eats a new born lamb.

Manmohan is given credit as the architecht and designer of the reforms because he designed it and decided who was to head what committe and what they should aim for. He obviously had people execute it. He is given credit where it is due.

HPG Is given credit for Ycomb in a similar manner.

While you may have stopped being a supporter, like many of us, it should have no bearing on his past achievements.

If anything it only highlights how he would have performed with a stronger hand behind the throne, sadly.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#78

Post by irahul » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 6:35 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #50

dr_ wrote: post #29

A few years ago I had traveled to India, and had plans to leave the country for a week then return. Big mistake. I was advised to go to the Indian embassy in the destination country to get permission to come back. I did so, they took my passport and told me to come back the following day, hence delaying my travels within that country by a day. I returned to India ok. When i was leaving India I was asked why I had not…

>>I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again. Sad, I am Indian too. Born, raised in India, Bangalore. The process you describe is something that every 'Indian' here goes through. I was a little taken aback when you said 'I am Indian mind you'. I think you refer to the legal status. Because although I agree that its painful- Being an Indian you experienced wha…

> But are you actually an 'Indian'?

I used to work for Infosys, Bangalore. This is what it looks like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Bangalore... (just one of about 50 buildings)

I couldn't find the image but the area immediately behind Infosys(For those who know, the pathway you take to get to the bus stop on Hosur Road) is in complete contrast - dirty, impoverished.

While passing through that area, it often happened that one of my friends would remark "this is the real India". And I always had the same question - What makes it any more real than the Infosys you are coming from, and what makes them any more Indian than I am(not by choice; I was born one)? Even if some category is in minority(an example; working, middle class people aren't minority in India), it's not any less real than the majority.

I am pretty sure whatever categorization you have for actually being an Indian, most of it won't be applicable to me. But the good thing is, the only thing required for actually being an India is to satisfy the constitutional requirements(born in India in my case). The opinion of what anyone else thinks about being an Indian doesn't matter much(well, so called guards of being Indian do cause trouble, but that's not legal).

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#79

Post by irahul » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 6:39 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #69

FraaJad wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US". You are not an Indian, you are a "Person of Indian Origin". Big difference.

This reference will be lost on most HN readers, so I'll explain for everyone else. In many situations, you are better off being white and American than a PIO (this is a very commonly used term). You will get better treatment and are less likely to be cheated by a price-gouging merchant or bureaucrat. Mendicants are much more aggressive with PIOs. Merchants are similarly more aggressive. I've had one tell me that it w…

> I'm very careful to adjust my clothing, hairstyle, etc.

That is interesting. Did you spend majority of your childhood elsewhere, because considering the diversity of India, it's pretty hard to tell.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#80

Post by intended » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 6:42 PM UTC

irahul wrote: post #76

eshvk wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am confused: Are you actually saying that asserting one's Indian heritage means that one has to accept all the shit that happens due to an incompetent completely broken system?

> one's Indian heritage Depending on your perception, either there is no such thing as India heritage or it's so broad that it's bordering on being indistinguishable from non-Indian heritage. 1. We are talking about a country of over a billion people who are descendants of different races. Aryans, dravidians(I believe aryan invasion is under dispute but there are more people leaning towards it). I don't know what rac…

Right now? Helping out country men from the north east, and surviving the daily tribulations of India with stoicism, and the ability to be open to all castes, creeds and colors

The one thing that united most of India was mysticism and the belief that we are one under some god.

You can experiment with that as a start. It's what bound the Sufis, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and several other religions during the best of our times.

We don't want to emulate our worst times.