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The Coming Storm: How Mediterranean Water Collapse Could Reshape Britain

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Re: The Coming Storm: How Mediterranean Water Collapse Could Reshape Britain

#61

Post by octo888 »

nradov wrote: post #51
octo888 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What food insecurity? We joined a successful agricultural union (the EEC, in 1973) and remained a member of its successor for decades and had fantastic access to produce, and some of the cheapest food in the EU (also thanks to a highly competitive grocery sector) Even since leaving, the food supply issues have been very minor. We may have food insecurity in the future but I'm confused if you're implying we've had any…

If a country depends on foreign imports just to satisfy basic needs then they are food insecure, by definition. Membership in alliances and trading blocs is temporary, and if other countries have the power to cut you off then that's an existential threat. You would think that the UK would have learned something from the food shortages during WWII when a blockade was in effect. The country might have starved if not fo…

We obviously have a very different definition of food insecurity. I don't agree with your definition. I think you're talking about import dependence.

The World Food Programme define it as "Food security exists when people have access to enough safe and nutritious food for normal growth and development, and an active and healthy life". They also link to the IPC (Integrated Food Security Phase Classification), which hasn't even ranked much of Europe, I imagine for quite obvious reasons.

The FAO (Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations) defines it as "the generally accepted definition of food security is "a situation in which all people at all times have access to adequate quantities of safe and nutritious food to lead a healthy and active life".

Importing food can strengthen food security. Complete self-sufficiency can be a weakness too - we have one bad year of weather and oops sorry people starve because we did away with our all produce import systems?

Systemic resilience to me seems more important that the exact origin of the food.

We are a country adept at international trade and I don't see why we should stop over some odd notion that imports are bad.

Many, many other countries import a lot of their food. We are not weird outliers.

Which countries do you think we should model ourselves over, out of curiosity? Who excels at self sufficiency (except the US - we aren't all blessed at having the power, geography and climate of the US. Nor frankly do we think their agricultural system is an example to copy)

Later

Regarding WWII, of course the entire continent learnt a lot of hard lessons - particularly about agricultural policy. I already mentioned the EEC. Desire for peace was a big reason for agricultural co-operation, if I recall my history correctly. The continent with many countries that loved wars would have no problem going to war over food

Re: The Coming Storm: How Mediterranean Water Collapse Could Reshape Britain

#62

Post by tim333 »

fmajid wrote: post #55

The UK is busy destroying the little agriculture it has with free-trade agreements like the one with Australia that has far fewer animal-welfare safeguards, thus tying British cattle growers' hands behind their backs, when Australia already has significant comparative advantages. You can imagine what will happen to those supplies if there is any major disruption. The thing is, global warming is making UK agriculture…

My dad was a UK farmer not so long ago and was paid to set aside land by the EU as production was too high. If they really want more food they could ask farmers to produce it.

Re: The Coming Storm: How Mediterranean Water Collapse Could Reshape Britain

#63

Post by throwaway198846 »

layer8 wrote: post #60
throwaway198846 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran's climate is not really connected to the Mediterranean sea - they are 2000km from Lebanon, just because they have a silver of land that happened to fall under mediaterrian classifcation doesn't mean they are mediaterrean

My point was that while it isn’t part of the Mediterranean as a geographic region, the Mediterranean as a climate zone does extend into Iran. And the article is about that climatical and agricultural zone.

I understood your point I just don't find it convincing. For example modern olive (staple of mediaterrian for thousand of years) don't come close to Iran (according to the map on Wikipedia). If you look at map of predicted future water stress you will see it includes far more than mediaterrian climate (or mediaterrian). Thus my main point - it doesn't make sense to call it "Mediterranean Water Collapse"

Re: The Coming Storm: How Mediterranean Water Collapse Could Reshape Britain

#64

Post by tim333 »

A lot of these 'water crisis' articles seem to try to make it out to be more of a crisis than it is, in that the amount of water remains similar and people squabble over what to use it for. Like in Cyprus they say the amount of water is down 17% since 1900 which is not that much and the main reason they are short is "all these tourists, all these golf courses". Life is full of trade offs - you have to decide whether to use it for vineyards or golf courses but I'm not sure that's the crisis the article makes out.

Re: The Coming Storm: How Mediterranean Water Collapse Could Reshape Britain

#65

Post by tim333 »

octo888 wrote: post #16
nradov wrote: post #2

This is a good, thoughtful analysis. I think many people outside the Mediterranean region are simply unaware of water issues there. As for the UK, I can't understand why they have allowed sustained high immigration rates for decades despite food insecurity and a housing shortage.

What food insecurity? We joined a successful agricultural union (the EEC, in 1973) and remained a member of its successor for decades and had fantastic access to produce, and some of the cheapest food in the EU (also thanks to a highly competitive grocery sector) Even since leaving, the food supply issues have been very minor. We may have food insecurity in the future but I'm confused if you're implying we've had any…

I was thinking that - I've lived in the UK for 60 years and not noticed much food insecurity. I mean if we were cut off there would be shortage of avocados and bananas and the like but we wouldn't starve. We might have to take some of the set aside land and plant potatoes or something.

Re: The Coming Storm: How Mediterranean Water Collapse Could Reshape Britain

#66

Post by nradov »

octo888 wrote: post #61
nradov wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a country depends on foreign imports just to satisfy basic needs then they are food insecure, by definition. Membership in alliances and trading blocs is temporary, and if other countries have the power to cut you off then that's an existential threat. You would think that the UK would have learned something from the food shortages during WWII when a blockade was in effect. The country might have starved if not fo…

We obviously have a very different definition of food insecurity. I don't agree with your definition. I think you're talking about import dependence. The World Food Programme define it as "Food security exists when people have access to enough safe and nutritious food for normal growth and development, and an active and healthy life". They also link to the IPC (Integrated Food Security Phase Classification), which ha…

You're missing the point. Those definitions you cite are only relevant to individuals or groups of people, not entire nation states. No one is claiming that imports are "bad" or proposing to do away with all food imports, but countries should be able to produce enough staple foodstuffs to meet the basic caloric and nutritional needs of their population. Otherwise they continue to exist only on the sufferance of others. Do you really believe that the UK could never, ever be blockaded again? Has history come to an end?

Besides the USA there are a number of countries which are at least mostly food secure including Canada, Russia, India, Brazil, France, Ukraine, Australia, and New Zealand. Some of those do depend on imports of fossil fuels and fertilizers to maintain production.

Re: The Coming Storm: How Mediterranean Water Collapse Could Reshape Britain

#67

Post by goopypoop »

vixen99 wrote: post #27
KaiserPro wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why they have allowed sustained high immigration rates for decades recently its because we need skilled and cheap labour to fill the holes in our health and buisness system. Housing shortages is not a direct immigration issue[1], its a policy issue. People of a certain type do not want high rise buildings near them. people of another different type are really happy because they can now build less and sell for more.…

Britain has a very generous welfare system it cannot afford and appears to be unable to even reverse its expansion. According to the Center for Migration Control, there are 1.15 million foreign born individuals claiming some form of in-work benefit. Irrespective of one's views on the migrant question, this is unsustainable. For instance, the National Health System (NHS) has recently been sending patients to Poland an…

>Irrespective of one's views on the migrant question, this is unsustainable.

That's neither true nor irrespective of your views on "the migrant question", which are evidently informed by an explicitly anti-immigration interest group.

A million immigrant workers claiming "some form of in-work benefit" is not significant. See e.g. £23B unclaimed benefits last year.

Your fact about NHS waiting times doesn't support any claim you've made.

It's like you're trolling, but perhaps the best interpretation is you're a GBNews victim?

Re: The Coming Storm: How Mediterranean Water Collapse Could Reshape Britain

#68

Post by KaiserPro »

vixen99 wrote: post #27
KaiserPro wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why they have allowed sustained high immigration rates for decades recently its because we need skilled and cheap labour to fill the holes in our health and buisness system. Housing shortages is not a direct immigration issue[1], its a policy issue. People of a certain type do not want high rise buildings near them. people of another different type are really happy because they can now build less and sell for more.…

Britain has a very generous welfare system it cannot afford and appears to be unable to even reverse its expansion. According to the Center for Migration Control, there are 1.15 million foreign born individuals claiming some form of in-work benefit. Irrespective of one's views on the migrant question, this is unsustainable. For instance, the National Health System (NHS) has recently been sending patients to Poland an…

> Britain has a very generous welfare system

Its more generous than the USA. but its not generous. You try living on benefits

> 1.15 million foreign born individuals claiming some form of in-work benefit.

Indeed, but working age foreigners are way cheaper than boomer pensioners. The problem is, a large proportion of those foreigner are working to wipe the arses of said pensioners.

Moreover those benefits are a a state subsidy for cheap workers.

> Irrespective of one's views on the migrant question, this is unsustainable. For instance, the National Health System (NHS) has recently been sending patients to Poland and Lithuania to try to relieve pressure on the waiting lists.

Which is ironically unrelated to foreigners.

firsly, if your stuck on a waiting list not being able to work, you're not claiming in work benefits.

second the NHS has been chronically mismanaged for about 14 years, and needs staffing reforms to stop it bleeding staff (and driving up immigration)

thirdly sending people abroad to get treated is cheaper, and should return them to the workforce quicker, so reducing load on the benefits system

Lastly, immigrants are overwhelmingly young and free of chronic diseases. Its super hard to work an emigrate, find and keep a casual job if you need dialysis every week. Moreover, you don't get access to benefits instantly, and you run the risk of going undocumented which means no bank account, no public services and no legitimate housing. Its not like the states where you can carry on as normal. You're basically reduced to living on the streets or at the hands of organised crime.

Re: The Coming Storm: How Mediterranean Water Collapse Could Reshape Britain

#69

Post by nradov »

tim333 wrote: post #65
octo888 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What food insecurity? We joined a successful agricultural union (the EEC, in 1973) and remained a member of its successor for decades and had fantastic access to produce, and some of the cheapest food in the EU (also thanks to a highly competitive grocery sector) Even since leaving, the food supply issues have been very minor. We may have food insecurity in the future but I'm confused if you're implying we've had any…

I was thinking that - I've lived in the UK for 60 years and not noticed much food insecurity. I mean if we were cut off there would be shortage of avocados and bananas and the like but we wouldn't starve. We might have to take some of the set aside land and plant potatoes or something.

The food security situation in the UK was looking pretty dire 83 years ago. Food imports were cut in half, and attempts to increase domestic production had only limited success. It would have gotten a lot worse if Canada and the USA hadn't stepped in to help break the German blockade and deliver food aid. Memories are apparently short.

Re: The Coming Storm: How Mediterranean Water Collapse Could Reshape Britain

#70

Post by scoofy »

> Dr Kaveh Madani, Iran's former deputy environment head now at the UN University, has called sanctions "an environmental weapon." It's a strong claim, but the effect is undeniable: countries facing water stress are being denied the tools to address it.

Yes. Sanctions aren't supposed to be unpleasant. They're supposed to be painful. They're supposed to be a more peaceful substitute for literal violence.

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