Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not that bad compared to some parts of the US no, but it pains me. One of the best vacations I ever had was to Madeira (which is Portugese) many years ago. It was the time when Brasil (and some parts of PT) had metal music in the top-40 a lot and this is what they were playing in disco's. While in NL we had utter crap (depending on taste, i'm telling my story here :) going from 1-40 (or 100 for that matter), on…
This is caused by the change in food prices/availability. Traditional "mediterranean" diet is healthy and didn't cause people to get fat. Now unhealthy food is much cheaper and readily available. People hasn't still learned how to manage the change. Eventually they will... I hope :-)
The Exodus of Tech from Portugal
131–140 of 141 posts
Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
I care. If I didn't I wouldn't post here. But there is so much a single person can do. And I am very involved with portuguese tech companies at the moment. I just can't afford to live in Portugal any more.
But what does that mean? Portugal is very cheap (compared to mostly everything) unless you live in Lisbon. So don't live in Lisbon. What do you mean?
Even with the high costs of living in London I can save more money than when I was living in Lisbon, but crucially I am exposed to more work opportunities that increase my experience and value as a developer.
The kind of stuff I have done abroad just does not exist in Portugal, at least at the time it did not.
And with regards to the patriotism aspect of your comment, I regularly send money to my family and take vacations in Portugal. All this money was earned abroad. Also, I regularly work for Portuguese customers in projects for foreign clients which means that I am helping with the exports of the country.
Finally, I am not nationalistic and I think those kind of feelings are detrimental to the evolution of civilisation. If anything I consider myself European, and I can't wait for a democratic centralised european government that brings some proper law and order to clean up the corruption and ineptitude of the politicians running Portugal, which is now the most unequal country in the EU with the lowest social mobility and an education level below Mexico.
Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal
#133Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
But I don't think that's true. Portugal (and the other southern countries) have a lot of talent; why let that talent be bought up by outside countries (like mine)? The world is very ripe for near shoring and actually good programmers are incredibly hard to find. For anyone. People are getting tired with Asian 'factories' with people who, usually, derive no pleasure from their work. Simply; if you open a company NOW i…
One of the big problems in Portugal, aside from all the economic issue, is the "employee syndrome" ... at least it's what i call it. In Portugal, it's hard to find people with a entrepreneur'ish spirit. Everyone want's to be employee and expect the salary at the end of the month without ( and the salary must be really interesting too ). Oh, and another thing ... people just can't understand that you need to be offer…
In the company I work for (about 80 people here), it's not the university rookies that I have problems with: some are weak, some are excelent. But most of them come with a desire to learn, and will in most cases be exploited by PHB project managers that make them work very long hours. Have seen it happen again and again, with no productivity gain whatsoever.
But then, when that really excelent rookie hire appears, with an outstanding ROI, we just can't hire him/her or give him a decent salary, because of all the 'historic' figures that are on the company forever. That's why I cannot agree with a simplistic "juniors can't expect to earn the same salary as someone that has more experience". Some fully deserve it, don't get it, and then become just another layed back demotivated worker.
Thus, "It's all about being a worthily asset for the company, other than just being an simple asset.", can I assume that you offer stock options? Clearly defined rewards if success is reached?
Of course that its not all about the money, but so many portuguese bussiness owners like to forget about their employees once they reach success, and maintain the 'just an employee status'. Thus, it goes both ways. I'm not saying it is your case, but I could not infer otherwise from your text.
And finally: "that they really need to work had to make a difference" What's working hard? To so many people working hard is working long hours almost every single day. My personal experience tells me most of the people that work long hours are either slackers (lots of coffee, lots of talk) or workaholics that do not always play well with others.
Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
Coming from Greece and currently working in Australia, I see what you mean. Nevertheless, even if there is opportunity for creation there is no such opportunity for survival. When you are in a market with shallow liquidity, the best intentions will not get you far. The near-shoring of course (absorbing liquidity from outside your country) is a potential solution, an attractive one too, but there are significant obsta…
You assume wrong; I want to pay fairly for what you are capable of. I always offer wage + % IF you want. I have been in this business for 20 years and I don't really care about money very much. I need it to feed my chickens, brew my beer and play with my ancient electronics. I actually take pleasure in seeing people become something they never thought they could be. I wake up in the morning thinking about some great…
Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal
#136The root of the problem is that developers in Portuguese organizations have little "political" power and low social prestige. They are generically put under the "técnicos" (technicians) category, not a very prestigious term. It's kind of a class thing: high class people do not dirty their hands with manual labor and boring technical stuff. High class people should manage other people and do not really have any respon…
Once Portuguese employees are always wanted everywhere in the world, I only can think that the root of our problems is the lack of good "bosses". In Portugal, "bosses" are less educated than employees. 71,3% have a maximum of 9 years of school! http://economia.publico.pt/Noticia/qualificacao-media-dos-pa... (portuguese language, sorry) How can these people invest in something they don't understand? They understand ab…
Managers should manage and should be effective at that.
As a software developer working in UK, I am managed by someone who has already been a developer in the past and he does not involve himself into any of the technical aspects of my job. He is caring after the larger picture, where I am only one of a group of players that he oversees. It's just like an orchestra, you don't expect the maestro to play all the instruments, but you _do_ expect him to know how to drive all the musicians. Having a manager that isn't smart (or whose education level + smarts doesn't meet the threshold of "can do more than just the mechanical aspects of the job" is a problem, however.) And as I've never been a developer in Portugal, because, education-wise, I don't qualify to work anywhere in Portugal, I cannot speak specifically how the landscape looks for software developers which during my 10 year stint was one area where a degree was an absolute must. However, as someone above said, there seems to be a lot of business leaders and while this is critically essential, it's unfortunately only a part of the much larger landscape and this is where it needs addressing.
Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
Still, it seems that you both have very long toes. I'm 48, so my toes are not specially affected. I simply dislike when a bunch of journalists and pundits with vested interests blame the victims . Older people have built a dysfunctional society and still the culprits seem to be the newcomers. 'pffff, that's no reason, I get free money, I don't need work and oh yeah, there is no work anyway' And that, by the way, is e…
Ok, I typed a whole rant and deleted it :) You moved from Cadiz to Madrid for jobs? What do you do if I may be so blunt? Because, as I have been typing in this thread all day; there are tons of jobs in my field (programming) all around here. You just need to be creative in finding them. There are so many people working 'from home' here as programmer and work is so easy to get it's scary. I don't think you realize how…
I worked four years as a freelance some time ago. I wouldn't leave my day job to do it again, maybe would do it on the side. Anyway, I'd rather take a full-time job abroad though (there are flights from London or Dublin daily), and I wouldn't need to deal with customers' bureaucracy, internal fights, and late payments and requirements.
I think that you have many facts right and a passion for what you do. But there are many facts you ignore and tend to arrive to rushed conclusions and some contradictions. Don't take my word for it, just see how many things you find incomprehensible about people's behaviour. That's not a coincidence! :-)
Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal
#138In Portugal I could't go any further because I didn't hold computer engineering degree.
In UK, I've reached Lead Developer position, and now Technical Project Manager. By contrast in Portugal nobody would even invite me in for an interview because the degree was a requirement.
Moving abroad hasn't always been easy. But I've found that beside the language everything else is purely down to your performance and personal ambitions.
Regards
Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why are you talking about "staying and fighting" for your beloved Homeland if you've got companies in various countries? Shouldn't you be happily shoveling truckloads of tax money into your own country's coffers instead of giving it away to others?
I do :) They are all owned by the mother company in NL; they pay a bit of tax everywhere but most in NL. Also, your beloved homeland IF it is your beloved homeland (it usually is). I'm not a big patriot; I like ES/PT more than my own country.
Well, why have you been talking like a "big patriot" that frowns upon non-patriotism then?
Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal
#140The root of the problem is that developers in Portuguese organizations have little "political" power and low social prestige. They are generically put under the "técnicos" (technicians) category, not a very prestigious term. It's kind of a class thing: high class people do not dirty their hands with manual labor and boring technical stuff. High class people should manage other people and do not really have any respon…
Once Portuguese employees are always wanted everywhere in the world, I only can think that the root of our problems is the lack of good "bosses". In Portugal, "bosses" are less educated than employees. 71,3% have a maximum of 9 years of school! http://economia.publico.pt/Noticia/qualificacao-media-dos-pa... (portuguese language, sorry) How can these people invest in something they don't understand? They understand ab…