The Exodus of Tech from Portugal • Hacker News Board

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#41

Post by justincormack » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 10:44 AM UTC

yeureka wrote: post #25

arethuza wrote: post #4

Isn't this inevitable given the freedoms given to people to work and live where they like within the EU? Doesn't something very similar happen within the US where, in general, the brightest and best are drawn to locations where they can get the best opportunities?

That is correct, but it takes more energy for a European national to move country because of the barriers of language, customs, laws, tax systems, etc... As an example, I have worked in Portugal, Spain and now the UK and I don't know if I will ever be entitled to a state pension when I retire even though I payed pension related taxes in all of these countries. In the US, AFAIK, it's a bit more homogeneous, no?

There will not be any state pensions in any of those countries by the time you retire, make your own provision. This debt crisis is about unpayable liabilities, among other things.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#42

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 10:47 AM UTC

josemariaruiz wrote: post #34

justincormack wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Service culture can change relatively fast with the right catalysts, which include better management and getting people more involved. The UK used to have terrible service (Fawlty Towers was based on real life), but has got much better. Immigration helped a lot though... Southern Europe is going to have to change a lot, fast. It is a huge opportunity if done right, but people dont even understand whats going on fully…

The waiter of Fawlty Towers was Spanish :)

And he was friendly :)

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#43

Post by hk_kh » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 10:47 AM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #23

danmaz74 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"this crazy way people treat clients in the south must come to a complete halt": Care to specify you mean here?

Well if you live in southern EU you have, as an example, Worten and Mediamarkt => they both do electronic 'stuff', games, tvs, washers, etc. They are quite comparable, except Worten is Portugese and Mediamarkt is German. And that difference is a huge gap. The staff is Worten, in all branches I have been, and, when I had enough, my friends have been, is downright shit. We are talking girls with braces talking to their…

> The younger generation is fat and spoiled and angry. Why? The news probably? Hearing every day your country is going under is not stimulating while the older generation lived with Franco / Salazar and know that this is the best they every had.

Way to keep it classy..

The younger generation is not fat, nor spoiled, maybe angry. You just see the most blatant cases, and decide that's the general rule.

If the average bar you were in was like a 'tourist attraction' it was that you just fell in all the tourist traps available. There are plenty of nice places to spend the day (and the night) in Spain.

About the Salazar/Franco line, I do not understand exactly if you are implying the older generation lived through a dictatorship, and now is the best they ever had (since there's no dictator), or you mean things were better during these times.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#44

Post by bpedro » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 10:48 AM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #8

We just opened up in PT http://appsalad.com/appdesign/nieuw-appsalad-portugal-is-een... (Dutch) and we'll be opening a second office in Faro soon. Most devs want to stay in their country and we don't mind giving them that opportunity. I never understood why people would leave what they love though; be that India or Portugal or whatever; there is plenty to do and live for if you are resourceful and the Portugese I met…

Why have you opened in PT (and will be opening a second office soon) and not in France or the UK?

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#45

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 10:49 AM UTC

justincormack wrote: post #36

tluyben2 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how are you going to help that? Or you don't care? The asinine tax system is more or less the same as I'm used to in NL/DE. Taxes are not for your pleasure. Sure it could be easier, but it's not easier in most civilized places. I'm not Portugese, but I would do my best for my country and not leave like you have no other choice.

I think you will find that the tax system (and permits etc) are worse. Tax rates are higher in de/nl but the system is somewhat simpler. Spain, just to pick a random example, just removed a six month process to get a permit to open a retail location. And it is not like you can apply online or anything. I am in the UK where most stuff is even easier (was looking at setting up a company in different European countries,…

Well I have companies in NL/DE/ES/PT and I don't see much difference. There are differences, but frustration wise, they are just all at the same level. In Spain I go with the flow which basically just means stuff takes forever, but everyone seems fine with that.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#46

Post by miguelpais » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 10:49 AM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #39

miguelpais wrote: post #27

I'm one of those about to graduate students from a technical university in Lisbon, and for me, there is no doubt anymore, I'll start to work outside of Portugal. When you look at it from one side, South European countries have everything: they have the food, the weather, good universities, kind and welcoming people (not to say that other countries don't), talent. They have the potential to be the best countries to li…

Change comes from the people of the country, not the people who run away. You should fight for change, not take the way of least resistance. Look beyond your personal gains and to the remaking of a whole country. If all brains leave, your country will be dead soon. And yes, of course you don't work for big consultancy companies :) That I have notices a lot; people in Portugal, especially students, seem to be overly o…

To be quite frank I wonder what is better for the country: staying there, working your ass off and getting just enough to survive, or being outside, opening your horizons, maybe being exposed to new ways of thinking, technologies or ideas, and one day come back and strive to offer to the country what you learned outside.

These people that are leaving, they still love they country, and I'm sure most of them still think about returning to it sooner or later.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#47

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 10:50 AM UTC

yeureka wrote: post #37

tluyben2 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how are you going to help that? Or you don't care? The asinine tax system is more or less the same as I'm used to in NL/DE. Taxes are not for your pleasure. Sure it could be easier, but it's not easier in most civilized places. I'm not Portugese, but I would do my best for my country and not leave like you have no other choice.

I care. If I didn't I wouldn't post here. But there is so much a single person can do. And I am very involved with portuguese tech companies at the moment. I just can't afford to live in Portugal any more.

But what does that mean? Portugal is very cheap (compared to mostly everything) unless you live in Lisbon. So don't live in Lisbon. What do you mean?

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#48

Post by josemariaruiz » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 10:50 AM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #39

miguelpais wrote: post #27

I'm one of those about to graduate students from a technical university in Lisbon, and for me, there is no doubt anymore, I'll start to work outside of Portugal. When you look at it from one side, South European countries have everything: they have the food, the weather, good universities, kind and welcoming people (not to say that other countries don't), talent. They have the potential to be the best countries to li…

Change comes from the people of the country, not the people who run away. You should fight for change, not take the way of least resistance. Look beyond your personal gains and to the remaking of a whole country. If all brains leave, your country will be dead soon. And yes, of course you don't work for big consultancy companies :) That I have notices a lot; people in Portugal, especially students, seem to be overly o…

Change comes when a paradigm no longer can support the evidence of its failure and a new paradigm can replace it. All these countries (Portugal, Italy, Greece Spain... PIGS!) are now discovering that the "quality of life" was sustained in a false growing paradigm based on subsides and abuse. The new paradigm will be brought by all the people living outside that will bring back a different work culture and have probably broken links with the establishment in their countries.

Or at least that's my hope. Maybe all this is really a healing mechanism.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#49

Post by fun2have » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 10:55 AM UTC

If you are in Portugal and want to work for a fun innovative start up. Come and work for us. So far we have grown from 2 person to over 12 person in a year been here. http://webnographer.theresumator.com/ for a bit more background here on why we did it http://blog.webnographer.com/2010/10/an-rd-office-in-lisbon/

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#50

Post by justincormack » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 10:55 AM UTC

josemariaruiz wrote: post #22

davidw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Spain people a few years ago said stupid things to justify not moving to other countries where salaries were like 3 times Spanish ones: weather, food and «quality of life». I don't think that's stupid. I get seriously depressed when it's gray, gray, gray all the time, which is one of the reasons I moved from Oregon to Italy many years ago. I also like how some interpersonal dynamics are here: all my 'nerd' frien…

Yes Davidw, but I can tell you something about quality of life... it doesn't exists if you don't have money :) Salaries in Spain for IT are so absurd: 600~1500 EUR/month in the south. If you are in the 1500EUR/month salary you are a lucky bastard! Spain is going to change in a really bad way in the next one or two decades and no one wants to be there when they can stay at 5 hours of flight in UK (including bus/train…

The real question is why companies are still not able to compete even with these lower costs. Other inefficiencies and being in the wrong markets?