The Exodus of Tech from Portugal • Hacker News Board

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#121

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 2:22 PM UTC

borispavlovic wrote: post #118

tluyben2 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people have a bond with where they are born. Indeed it doesn't matter who you 'help', but if you feel drawn to your motherland and your family lives there you would be better off helping there than in the US/UK. If you have no bond with where you grew up, then of course. One country is no better than another. If you do care, you moving out is neither needed nor beneficial. And 'treated better' is just how you ma…

Portugal has a long history of oppression that was removed less than forty years ago. Some things change, but the mentality of people doesn't change that fast. There may be no open oppression but a silent one for sure. It's easy to be brave in an organized country ruled on laws. In a highly corrupted Portuguese society it's not that easy. ( https://www.google.com/search?q=corruption+in+portugal&s... )

I can see that, and that is easier talking from my side of the table. However, someone needs to set changes in motion. Spain is extremely corrupt as well and when we opened up in Ukraine 15 years ago we had to pay the fire men (?) and the taxes guys a few 100 hryvnia every time they came by so they wouldn't actually close the company down. Bribing everyone was required to run anything in Lviv. It's not that bad in PT/ES.

If enough people persist though, changes happen. If no one does it, it stays the same. At least longer. And I know not all think like that; I made great entrepreneur friends in PT who run great companies with great people. They are changing things. And people are listening; we have coffee and beers with the major and university director and so forth because they need their town to change and they want to stimulate this change all they can. A lot of people want this, the fact that some are stuck in their ways has to change. If I can contribute 1 millionth of a % to that, I am happy.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#122

Post by olifante » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 2:23 PM UTC

galfarragem wrote: post #115

olifante wrote: post #76

The root of the problem is that developers in Portuguese organizations have little "political" power and low social prestige. They are generically put under the "técnicos" (technicians) category, not a very prestigious term. It's kind of a class thing: high class people do not dirty their hands with manual labor and boring technical stuff. High class people should manage other people and do not really have any respon…

Once Portuguese employees are always wanted everywhere in the world, I only can think that the root of our problems is the lack of good "bosses". In Portugal, "bosses" are less educated than employees. 71,3% have a maximum of 9 years of school! http://economia.publico.pt/Noticia/qualificacao-media-dos-pa... (portuguese language, sorry) How can these people invest in something they don't understand? They understand ab…

Education is not the problem, it's the solution. Even though there's a lot of brouhaha about educated unemployment, education really pays off in Portugal, compared to countries like Germany and Austria. Studies repeatedly show that the more educated you are (at least below Phd level), the better your life outcomes are, both in terms of years employed and of lifelong earnings.

I agree however that we made the educational mistake of putting all eggs in one basket by declaring university education as the universal goal. Perhaps a dual education model such as the German one would help in that respect.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#123

Post by galfarragem » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 2:34 PM UTC

olifante wrote: post #122

galfarragem wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once Portuguese employees are always wanted everywhere in the world, I only can think that the root of our problems is the lack of good "bosses". In Portugal, "bosses" are less educated than employees. 71,3% have a maximum of 9 years of school! http://economia.publico.pt/Noticia/qualificacao-media-dos-pa... (portuguese language, sorry) How can these people invest in something they don't understand? They understand ab…

Education is not the problem, it's the solution. Even though there's a lot of brouhaha about educated unemployment, education really pays off in Portugal, compared to countries like Germany and Austria. Studies repeatedly show that the more educated you are (at least below Phd level), the better your life outcomes are, both in terms of years employed and of lifelong earnings. I agree however that we made the educatio…

I agree with you, before I just wanted to say that people were/are still educated in a anti-capitalistic education system while we still live in a capitalist country/world. This is very typical from south european contries and the root of their problems probably as escape to past right wing regimes mentality.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#124

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 2:43 PM UTC

hk_kh wrote: post #117

tluyben2 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be an angry young person :) But you are working and you have studied; so why do you find this insulting? If you are not working and not studying, what are you doing? Why is it not ok to call the problem by it's name? Again, I don't know about the north, but here there are TONS of jobs, just no one takes them, and this NiNi seems to be an apt description of that. Sure, if you actually cannot find a job and…

I find it insulting because the word NiNi is just a generalization on young people (as me) that politicians and media is throwing around to make us feel bad, and to portray a group of people that does not represent the majority. The average age on Spain is 40.5. It's so easy to just say, fuck it, young people is lazy, so let's let the government pass this or these other bigoted rules, or even let a bigoted party rule…

That is a reason to be angry; tax increase is needed to 'save Spain', but... What pisses me off is the corruption levels; if I can be assured my tax money goes to better roads, healthcare, stabilizing the economy and so forth, I am happy to pay increases. But i'm not sure of that and I really don't want to pay for the new private helicopter of some gov contractor CEO who happens to be friends with some gov official (and delivers shabby work as cheap as possible).

In the town I used to go to in the Alpujarra (Sierra Nevada) they 'lost' E2 million town hall money. Lost. And what's being done? Nothing. Someone is driving a souped up Veron drunk into a canyon while the children in the village might be losing their school. That makes me angry.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#125

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 3:01 PM UTC

marcocampos wrote: post #85

swah wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought Lisbon was cheap as well, greatest cups of coffee I had for .50 euro.

Cheap? Yes, if you come from a country like the US, UK, Germany, etc. The problems is that salaries for tech jobs aren't very good compared with said countries.

But it's much cheaper, so why is it a problem? Why do you need to earn a salary to pay for a E4.50 coffee if you buy it for E0.50? It's only a problem if you earn much less than other countries but your expenses are the same, right? I mean Lisbon is expensive compared to other cities in PT, but wages are also higher to compensate. They are not 'high enough' (with the '' to say ofcourse they are never 'high enough', but you know what I mean?)?

We decided not to go to Lisbon because of the sheer amount of 'jumpers' (I don't know the proper term): people who will go to another company for E100/month more (probably because there is so much choice there). It's too hard to filter them out and we don't want them. We tried it for a bit but people coming to interviews with proposal letters from other companies in hand to get you to outbid is just not what we want. It's like cheating; you'll know they'll do it again.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#126

Post by davidw » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 3:25 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #101

jeltz wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, both taxes and salaries are higher in Northern Europe and our companies are still competitive so that is not the reason why the Spanish IT companies are not competitive.

Taxes as a % of GDP are not that much higher, if at all, in northern Europe than in Italy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenu... And you get a lot more of them back in various ways in northern Europe. I think it's a fairly complex question, and that's part of it. Maybe there's actually an opportunity, because I know a bunch of smart developers in Italy who work for less than they would get e…

Actually, tax incidence in Italy is even worse than that:

https://twitter.com/MicheleCaivano/status/240087376465125377...

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#127

Post by batista » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 3:29 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #67

tluyben2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Change comes from the people of the country, not the people who run away. You should fight for change, not take the way of least resistance. Look beyond your personal gains and to the remaking of a whole country. If all brains leave, your country will be dead soon. And yes, of course you don't work for big consultancy companies :) That I have notices a lot; people in Portugal, especially students, seem to be overly o…

Look beyond your personal gains and to the remaking of a whole country. If all brains leave, your country will be dead soon. So what? Why should you care about the health of "your country"? That's just an attempt at emotional manipulation. You can help Portugal with your IT skills, or you can help a similar number of people in the US/UK. If you get treated better doing the latter, there is no reason to stick to Portu…

>So what? Why should you care about the health of "your country"? That's just an attempt at emotional manipulation.

No, it's an attempt at appeal to a pre-existing emotion. Not the same at all. Not everyone of us is a rootless opportunist that will go to any place he might get an advantage from going at a moment's notice.

Some of us have bonds with the place where we grow up, and the place were our friends and relatives live. We also have bonds with our culture (from the language, to the music to cuisine). It would be a sad world if everybody was only thinking of his own marginal benefit and could not care less about such things.

Plus, beside the emotional and cultural bond, a lot of us want to give back to our community and improve it for the future generations, and not flee at the chance of a better salary elsewhere.

For an American it might be "freedom", but for a lot of world cultures, the ease with which an e.g American changes states is a sign of lack of roots and fear of emotional attachment, not to mention selfishness and lack of care for one's parents. Plus the mighty appeal of the dollar and the "american dream" of making it big, ie the opposite of actual freedom.

Not that there aren't tons of American's deeply connected with their state and city (mostly people in the South, in my experience, but I also know New Yorkers and Chicagoans that wouldn't change their city for anything).

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#128

Post by narag » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 4:47 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #116

narag wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess he finds insulting that the term is thrown to every young people " generation nini" as if being of a certain age is synonim of being a slacker. There are a number of other subtle generalization in your comments to this story that I find moderately annoying, even if (or maybe because) some of your points are true. I won't go into them in detail, it would be a very long conversation. Just let me say that you're…

Ah I did not know it was used in that way. Still, it seems that you both have very long toes. Generalizations often are there because they go for a large part of the population. And things I see happening here is simply something I say out loud. Of course they don't go for everyone and everywhere, but I'm not a hermit, I spend a lot of time with people who live here and have lived here for generations. In the village…

Still, it seems that you both have very long toes.

I'm 48, so my toes are not specially affected. I simply dislike when a bunch of journalists and pundits with vested interests blame the victims.

Older people have built a dysfunctional society and still the culprits seem to be the newcomers.

'pffff, that's no reason, I get free money, I don't need work and oh yeah, there is no work anyway'

And that, by the way, is exactly true. Why study if, after all the effort, graduates are paid less than unskilled workers? Why, if the important thing is who you know, not what you are capable of? The work thing is even worse, but I get angry only to think about it. Just think who their role models are.

I'm from a town not very far from there, in Cádiz. I had to come to Madrid 16 years ago, because there wasn't virtually any job for me there.

you don't live in Germany; prices are simply much lower

Sorry to be blunt, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Price difference may be significant WRT small villages near Ronda, but it's negligible compared to Madrid. And there is no decent work for a programmer in a village. And even in Madrid salaries are half what you earn in London.

Trust me that cost of living is not nearly double in London than in Madrid. You don't think it makes sense? Ask anyone anywhere if it makes sense for them to go elsewhere and get paid double.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#129

Post by narag » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 4:56 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #69

josemariaruiz wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being from Málaga, and my wife from Ronda, I can confirm what you say xD. Well, 'a few kilos' too heavy is not that bad compared with USA people :p. It's all about the change in the customs and the way we eat. Spanish gyms are full of very healthy people, yet running and going to work in bike is still strange in Spain (which is a culture-shock for someone from NL). And about asking for the past and Franco... Ronda is…

It's not that bad compared to some parts of the US no, but it pains me. One of the best vacations I ever had was to Madeira (which is Portugese) many years ago. It was the time when Brasil (and some parts of PT) had metal music in the top-40 a lot and this is what they were playing in disco's. While in NL we had utter crap (depending on taste, i'm telling my story here :) going from 1-40 (or 100 for that matter), on…

This is caused by the change in food prices/availability. Traditional "mediterranean" diet is healthy and didn't cause people to get fat. Now unhealthy food is much cheaper and readily available. People hasn't still learned how to manage the change. Eventually they will... I hope :-)

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#130

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 6:28 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #128

tluyben2 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah I did not know it was used in that way. Still, it seems that you both have very long toes. Generalizations often are there because they go for a large part of the population. And things I see happening here is simply something I say out loud. Of course they don't go for everyone and everywhere, but I'm not a hermit, I spend a lot of time with people who live here and have lived here for generations. In the village…

Still, it seems that you both have very long toes. I'm 48, so my toes are not specially affected. I simply dislike when a bunch of journalists and pundits with vested interests blame the victims . Older people have built a dysfunctional society and still the culprits seem to be the newcomers. 'pffff, that's no reason, I get free money, I don't need work and oh yeah, there is no work anyway' And that, by the way, is e…

Ok, I typed a whole rant and deleted it :)

You moved from Cadiz to Madrid for jobs? What do you do if I may be so blunt? Because, as I have been typing in this thread all day; there are tons of jobs in my field (programming) all around here. You just need to be creative in finding them.

There are so many people working 'from home' here as programmer and work is so easy to get it's scary. I don't think you realize how incredibly crap most programmers are and how unreliable they are. To hire a reliable western programmer is something which takes a bit of beating and losing money on crap programmers, but after that you'll have a job for life and you only notice the 'legacy stuff' with the first project (clients will panic every second they don't hear from you but that passes). But it won't be with a contract and such, it will be freelance. I imagine some people are not ok with that. On the other hand, you live only once and in this stint of a life, I would rather live under a bridge than move from Cadiz to Madrid. That's just me of course, but you might not have to depending on what your trade is?