The Exodus of Tech from Portugal • Hacker News Board

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#111

Post by anil_mamede » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 1:27 PM UTC

jc79 wrote: post #102

anil_mamede wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are never old to do what we like. We just need to find the right environment. This environment exists but, of course, we must do something in order to find it. Going to conferences, meet the right people and address the issues of portuguese entrepreneuship. Without effort and some positive criticism we won't be able to change the panorama. Although the scaling issues is due, in some part, to lack of investment (in…

I agree with the difficulty to obtain investment. The ones with the money are the big banks, that still prefer very conservative (patent based!) bussiness, and there isn't much else. Not so long ago, the dream of a student finishing college here would be an internship on any given big company, even if not paid (and hence, supported by its parents, 95% of the cases), in hopes of then getting a paid job in the same com…

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Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#112

Post by ssn » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 1:30 PM UTC

The so called 'exodus' that Portugal is suffering from isn't limited to the tech industry. It affects all areas and is directly related to the current 'impoverishment' politics being followed in the country.

While interesting, this essay is very shortsighted.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#113

Post by Jare » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 1:36 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #55

josemariaruiz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody hates Endesa. In Spain is highly probable that when someone takes your call to a company he/she will be in South America ;) And about Spanish companies and how they treat their customers, I'm with you. This is ingrained in many mediterranean countries: no ones got rich doing hard work or through a strong work ethic. You can only get rich stealing, abusing and lying. The rate of people who evades taxes is so…

But the fact that everyone 'hates Endesa'. That wouldn't fly in NL, why does it fly in ES?

Long time ago, as a kid, my uncle took me to a soccer match in the Santiago Bernabeu. I've never liked soccer, so I spent much more time looking at people than the game. When the game ended, lots of people were red-faced, incredibly angry, neck veins sticking out, shouting all sorts of rude and terrible stuff at the ref. I was scared, I thought they would riot, jump the fences and kill him or something. As soon as he disappeared from sight, everyone relaxed and smiled, laughed to each other and said things to the effect of "that'll teach him."

In Spain most people are more preoccupied with being seen complaining than with doing something about that which they complain about.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#114

Post by ditados » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 2:01 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #104

narag wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a word: yes. I'm subcontracted, so even if my salary is half what it would be in UK, Germany, the cost for the company I work in is not so different. Their fault anyway, why don't they contract me directly? Add to that that rotation is wild. They hire the cheapest people: those who are unemployed and would take any offer. As soon as you're employed, it's orders of magnitude easier to get a job, so hasta luego, Luc…

Why don't foreign companies go there and hire people, though? They can hire people cheaper than having them move to the UK/Germany/US even if they pay above average local rates, they can hire people who otherwise wouldn't move (and even some of the movers will be happier closer to home), and since they're hiring them as part of a large, or at least multinational company, they don't necessarily need those people to ha…

I think that's precisely the point the author was making. Google could set up shop there and build a massive development centre that would make it easier for them to do stuff for Latin America and Africa - and yet they don't, other than a dinky office selling AdWords.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#115

Post by galfarragem » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 2:08 PM UTC

olifante wrote: post #76

The root of the problem is that developers in Portuguese organizations have little "political" power and low social prestige. They are generically put under the "técnicos" (technicians) category, not a very prestigious term. It's kind of a class thing: high class people do not dirty their hands with manual labor and boring technical stuff. High class people should manage other people and do not really have any respon…

Once Portuguese employees are always wanted everywhere in the world, I only can think that the root of our problems is the lack of good "bosses".

In Portugal, "bosses" are less educated than employees. 71,3% have a maximum of 9 years of school! http://economia.publico.pt/Noticia/qualificacao-media-dos-pa... (portuguese language, sorry) How can these people invest in something they don't understand? They understand about carrying bricks and painting walls, that's why we have thousands of empty houses in Portugal and Spain. There is no place for VC and marketable innovation.

We come from a time where we needed to be rich to study. Salazar regime didn't want people to study and emancipate. Now the old regime is over but mentality is still there, people are too used to obbey and are full of preconcepts.

2 wrong things my parents generation did bad because of their ignorance:

a) made children to only focus on studies (cause they never had that chance). People get completely out of the market till they are 23-24. Then of course there are no available positions for high skilled employees. We have no companies with that demand. They were never created! New companies were created by the uneducated bullies. If their families have no capital and they are having first contact with money and market at middle 20's they have no money to risk. 2 solutions appear: unemployment or emmigration.

b) strong left wing (as bare reaction to Salazar right wing regime, without any thinking and ponderation): For example somebody lower than 16 years old caught working is considered crime in Portugal. If these kids are not making it to provide for their families or skipping school I see no problem with this.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#116

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 2:08 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #100

tluyben2 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be an angry young person :) But you are working and you have studied; so why do you find this insulting? If you are not working and not studying, what are you doing? Why is it not ok to call the problem by it's name? Again, I don't know about the north, but here there are TONS of jobs, just no one takes them, and this NiNi seems to be an apt description of that. Sure, if you actually cannot find a job and…

I guess he finds insulting that the term is thrown to every young people " generation nini" as if being of a certain age is synonim of being a slacker. There are a number of other subtle generalization in your comments to this story that I find moderately annoying, even if (or maybe because) some of your points are true. I won't go into them in detail, it would be a very long conversation. Just let me say that you're…

Ah I did not know it was used in that way. Still, it seems that you both have very long toes. Generalizations often are there because they go for a large part of the population. And things I see happening here is simply something I say out loud. Of course they don't go for everyone and everywhere, but I'm not a hermit, I spend a lot of time with people who live here and have lived here for generations. In the village where I live all but one (yes, all but one) of the guys under 25 are NiNis. And proud of it. Card-carrying NiNis. They seriously ask me why they should work as they get money from the state and their parents; what's the use? I try to explain them things best I can, but (because of dubbing?) their English is bad/non existent and my Spanish is ok for day to day use, but not for deep conversations like this. And usually discussions end in them going 'pffff, that's no reason, I get free money, I don't need work and oh yeah, there is no work anyway'.

I can see you might find it annoying to hear because it might be different in your part of country. As someone said already; Spain is a BIG country with a lot of different cultures, I'm seeing only one up close.

And swimming crosscurrent; isn't packing your bags and moving crosscurrent? It's quite a big step. My point is that there is enough work IN Spain/Portugal if you want it, and although you won't get paid as much as in Germany, you don't live in Germany; prices are simply much lower and you do have all healthcare and such covered. To the extend, if you carefully check, that you can find an insurer and make terms which allow you to go to Germany (or wherever, even the US) if you have something bad. Of course you should get a job abroad if you like it, but only for money it, to me, doesn't make sense.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#117

Post by hk_kh » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 2:08 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #83

hk_kh wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NiNi is a pejorative word used to refer to people that "Ni estudia Ni trabaja" (do not study, do not work). I hope this word just stops being used. As a young person from Spain that have studied and is working (and have been since I was 18), that term used in spanish people is terribly insulting.

You seem to be an angry young person :) But you are working and you have studied; so why do you find this insulting? If you are not working and not studying, what are you doing? Why is it not ok to call the problem by it's name? Again, I don't know about the north, but here there are TONS of jobs, just no one takes them, and this NiNi seems to be an apt description of that. Sure, if you actually cannot find a job and…

I find it insulting because the word NiNi is just a generalization on young people (as me) that politicians and media is throwing around to make us feel bad, and to portray a group of people that does not represent the majority.

The average age on Spain is 40.5. It's so easy to just say, fuck it, young people is lazy, so let's let the government pass this or these other bigoted rules, or even let a bigoted party rule, because it's the only way they will learn.

I was not saying you are not right (heck, we are in 28.4% of unemployment), I was pointing out that generalizations are incorrect and biased.

PS: I may be angry, because the government decided to increase taxes on self-employed people (with unreasonable numbers), making it harder for me to enjoy working and living here.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#118

Post by borispavlovic » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 2:10 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #72

yummyfajitas wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look beyond your personal gains and to the remaking of a whole country. If all brains leave, your country will be dead soon. So what? Why should you care about the health of "your country"? That's just an attempt at emotional manipulation. You can help Portugal with your IT skills, or you can help a similar number of people in the US/UK. If you get treated better doing the latter, there is no reason to stick to Portu…

Most people have a bond with where they are born. Indeed it doesn't matter who you 'help', but if you feel drawn to your motherland and your family lives there you would be better off helping there than in the US/UK. If you have no bond with where you grew up, then of course. One country is no better than another. If you do care, you moving out is neither needed nor beneficial. And 'treated better' is just how you ma…

Portugal has a long history of oppression that was removed less than forty years ago. Some things change, but the mentality of people doesn't change that fast. There may be no open oppression but a silent one for sure. It's easy to be brave in an organized country ruled on laws. In a highly corrupted Portuguese society it's not that easy. (https://www.google.com/search?q=corruption+in+portugal&s...)

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#119

Post by tluyben2 » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 2:10 PM UTC

white_devil wrote: post #108

tluyben2 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I have companies in NL/DE/ES/PT and I don't see much difference. There are differences, but frustration wise, they are just all at the same level. In Spain I go with the flow which basically just means stuff takes forever , but everyone seems fine with that.

Why are you talking about "staying and fighting" for your beloved Homeland if you've got companies in various countries? Shouldn't you be happily shoveling truckloads of tax money into your own country's coffers instead of giving it away to others?

I do :) They are all owned by the mother company in NL; they pay a bit of tax everywhere but most in NL.

Also, your beloved homeland IF it is your beloved homeland (it usually is). I'm not a big patriot; I like ES/PT more than my own country.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#120

Post by olifante » Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 2:16 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #103

olifante wrote: post #76

The root of the problem is that developers in Portuguese organizations have little "political" power and low social prestige. They are generically put under the "técnicos" (technicians) category, not a very prestigious term. It's kind of a class thing: high class people do not dirty their hands with manual labor and boring technical stuff. High class people should manage other people and do not really have any respon…

"It's kind of a class thing: high class people do not dirty their hands with manual labor and boring technical stuff." There may be some regional variants. A friend of mine who worked with some devs from the UK said that there the split is between guys who only write code (the 'higher class') and guys who might actually know how to plug in an Ethernet cable (the 'lower class'). I don't know if this is true in general…

As in most societies, there's bound to be a pecking order of some sorts, and I'm not saying that developers are at the rock-bottom of that order. And of course developers can be self-entitled, arrogant, obnoxious people — I might even be one of those :-)

Whether one appreciates or resents developers, the fact of the matter is that most moderately talented developers have some notion that they possess a valuable and hard-to-acquire skill which paradoxically doesn't empower them, due to the relentless effort by companies to commoditize developers and treat them as fungible resources.

Lacking power to effect any kind of meaningful change, developers with in-demand skills often end up voting with their feet, and organizations fail to accumulate and develop human capital.