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Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

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Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#361

Post by zizee »

tptacek wrote: post #358
zizee wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit is the only metric. Profit is not the only metric. Market share is a valid metric to compare products (as long as you have a sustainable position). If android was selling five times as many units as apple, but with only 15% the margin, then apple would still be the most profitable, but would be losing the mindshare war. Eventually devs would be concentrating their efforts on android first, and perhaps only for…

This is '99-bubble "sell the eyeballs" thinking. The point of business is profit. You can defer profitability, for instance to achieve market share in a market where having the greatest share promises future profits. But for that to be meaningful, you have to have a story about how buying market share with lower profits is going to offer a return on investment in the future. What's Samsung's story?

You must have missed the part where I wrote as long as you have a sustainable position.

In the case of Apple vs Samsung, the smart phone market is at a different level of maturity that lack of market share is not going drive developers away from iOS, but if we were much earlier in the market then it would be a significant issue for them.

What's Samsung's story?

I don't know what sort of margins Samsung is making on their devices, but they don't have to make as much per device as Apple to still be a success.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#362

Post by forensic »

kamechan wrote: post #298
forensic wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That global market is mostly made up people who would never become Apple customers. Apple really doesn't target poor people; Android does.

to me, this comment seems to be phrased a tad bit negatively, even though it may be factually correct. a lot of people like to talk about "android fragmentation". while the variety of devices out there can sometimes be annoying as a consumer and developer, i tend to think of it as "android diversity" instead. to me, it's wonderful that your so-called "poor people", who may not even have a regular computer and for who…

Just because I acknowledge they are poor people doesn't mean I think Android targeting them is bad. Android is a net positive for the species.

Having said that, it would be even better if more companies were willing to take risks and innovate like Apple has. Instead, most corporations are pathetically conservative, unimaginative, and basically stupid.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#363

Post by bluedanieru »

Apocryphon wrote: post #355
bluedanieru wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it won't. It will hurt innovation because every damn thing is going to have to go through a committee of lawyers before being approved, and it will hurt innovation because the idea that innovation always involves making something brand-new and from whole cloth is fucking retarded . Also the idea of a patent for pinch-and-zoom makes about as much sense as a patent for 'a vehicle powered by steam'. Patents are abou…

But what if this spurns designers and engineers to create designs that are completely different from before, because anything too similar is out of bounds? Wouldn't that drive them to think more different and wildly and uniquely? We may get a lot of stupid failed attempts out of this, but at least it will put the kibosh on "me-too" designs.

Maximizing the implemented portion of the solution space is not the same as innovating.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#364

Post by CamperBob2 »

esolyt wrote: post #338
CamperBob2 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How in the world do you interpret the language in claim 8 as "detecting a transition from scrolling to zooming"? The plain language just describes a single system that can process both single-touch scrolling input and multitouch gestures. Anything that does both appears to be covered by the claim.

I don't exactly know what the patent is. But it was clarified by Samsung attorney in the trial that you do not infringe Apple patents by having one finger scrolling and pinch to zoom. So it is possible to make a modern smartphone.

I don't exactly know what the patent is.

I see.

But it was clarified by Samsung attorney in the trial that you do not infringe Apple patents by having one finger scrolling and pinch to zoom. So it is possible to make a modern smartphone.

Those would be the same Samsung attorneys who just lost a $1 billion patent suit?

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#365

Post by gtirloni »

veyron wrote: post #166
btilly wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patent examiners do NOT conduct a very thorough review. The attitude is that it is better to get the patent out (for which they get paid) and let the courts sort out the bad ones. On this point I've been informed by patent lawyers that at trial something like 2/3 of patents will be found to be invalid. The problem is that nobody knows ahead of time which of those patents will be found to be invalid.

I have a few friends working as examiners for the USPTO. The review is more thorough than you make it sound. The problem is that the procedures drive examiners to err on the side of approving the patent. If the patent is rejected, a lawyer can appeal and the SPEs get involved. In the appeal, it takes much more evidence from the examiner to demonstrate that the patent is invalid.

The USPTO is dumping shit on the judicial system and they are taking it. We're hoping they won't take that for very long but I doubt it. Courts will keep doing what they do, apply the law, even if the law sucks. Perhaps when the system is clogged and companies can't release a product without wasting lots of money going over useless patents.. then we'll see some change.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#366

Post by gtirloni »

jcdavis wrote: post #51
alberich wrote: post #16

American patent system is weird. Why is it fair for someone to patent "what" you do, what should be fair to patent is "how" you make this thing viable (e.g. the algorithms used, or something like that)? As long as you don't use the mechanisms of your competition, you should be allowed to mimic the features present on other competitors' devices. Considering this, it seems clear that Samsung would lose the dispute anyw…

> you should be allowed to mimic the features present on other competitors' devices. To play the devil's advocate (as someone who hasn't taken a position on this ruling, but hates software patents in general): Why? Apple appears to have spent a lot of time and effort on small details. Why does Samsung get to just copy that with far less time and effort invested? With design, the "how" is a crapton of iteration and ca…

We are only discussing stupid patents in the software industry. I don't see any car maker suing the hell out of one another because their cars "have doors that open just like ours" or "their wheels move steady at 100km/h like ours".

This is all stupid, boring and sad. The IT world feels like a big bad joke.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#367

Post by forensic »

creamyhorror wrote: post #302
forensic wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to argue that they aren't competing. Apple innovates in their sphere of innovation, their competitors copy them and produce cheap knock-offs attempting to cash in Apple's R&D. It's not competition when one company does ALL the innovation and other companies just copy them and try to win on price. It would be competition if Google tried to out-do Apple, but they don't. Samsung doesn't compete with Apple eith…

> Samsung doesn't compete with Apple either. They are more similar to counterfeiters who sell black-market Oakley, Nike, and Prada stuff in alleyways. My goodness. Samsung designs may imitate Apple's to some debatable extent, but they're not labeling their products with an Apple logo. The way I see it, TV makers imitate each others' designs and features all the time, and so do car makers and fridge makers. > It's not…

Wow, you really know your definitions! Way to go!

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#368

Post by forensic »

blaines wrote: post #345
creamyhorror wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Samsung doesn't compete with Apple either. They are more similar to counterfeiters who sell black-market Oakley, Nike, and Prada stuff in alleyways. My goodness. Samsung designs may imitate Apple's to some debatable extent, but they're not labeling their products with an Apple logo. The way I see it, TV makers imitate each others' designs and features all the time, and so do car makers and fridge makers. > It's not…

> > It's not competition when one company does ALL the innovation and other companies just copy them and try to win on price. Zipcar. I just paid $137.39 for an Audi Q5. Audi can't do that. Price is usually the result of innovation, the tip of the iceberg. Otherwise we'd wouldn't be driving cars or, hopefully soon, flying into space. If anyone offers an iPhone 5 cheaper than Apple I'm sold! Better yet, make a phone b…

There's a difference between charging a lower price because you have innovated, and charging a lower price because someone else paid for your R&D.

Samsung is able to charge less money because they didn't have to pay for R&D, market testing, etc. They just copied a successful product.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#369

Post by forensic »

olalonde wrote: post #304
forensic wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to argue that they aren't competing. Apple innovates in their sphere of innovation, their competitors copy them and produce cheap knock-offs attempting to cash in Apple's R&D. It's not competition when one company does ALL the innovation and other companies just copy them and try to win on price. It would be competition if Google tried to out-do Apple, but they don't. Samsung doesn't compete with Apple eith…

> It's not competition when one company does ALL the innovation and other companies just copy them and try to win on price. When I bought my Samsung Galaxy SII, it was about the same price as an iPhone. > It would be competition if Google tried to out-do Apple, but they don't. That's your personal opinion. I personally prefer Android to iOS and so do many people.

You don't get it.

Samsung COPIED Apple, so when you enjoy your Samsung phone, you are enjoying the fruits of Apple's research, development, design, market testing, etc.

The majority of the creative, intellectual substance that is contained in the Samsung phones originated in Cupertino. Point being that if we want companies to create new things rather than just copy old things, we need to give greater rewards to the actual creative people who take risks and come up with the new ideas. The people who jump on board and say "I can copy that!" really deserve no consideration at all.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#370

Post by andyman1080 »

cageface wrote: post #210
programminggeek wrote: post #10

This is both unsurprising and somewhat meaningless as there will be an appeals process that will last for months and possibly years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that Samsung made their products to look like Apple products. They changed their icon styles and other UI elements away from Android standards to match the Apple style. Some of the things Apple invented and patented on like pinch to zoom an…

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patents. But this is nothing more than a smoke screen for their ongoing proxy war on Android. They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. Expect more attacks on Android seeking ridiculous dama…

As an Apple shareholder I must say I'm loving this market punishment!
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