Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#231

Post by masry » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:46 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #217

lotu wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Apple may only have 30% of the smart-phone market, they make around 70% of the profit in the that market. I hardly call that punishing.

I think they realize that this position is no more sustainable than their position was in the desktop market and they're acting out of fear. If you've used a recent, high-end Android phone you know that the quality gap is mostly gone and that the apps that most people care about are now available on both platforms. Apple is not going to be able to sustain their astonishing profit margins without the help of the court…

What profit margins? The iPhone has stayed at $200 while those high quality android phones typically sell for >= $250.

The iPhone also outsells all androids combined on every carrier in the US where the iPhone is available. I think apple is doing fine.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#232

Post by gurkendoktor » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:53 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #217

lotu wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Apple may only have 30% of the smart-phone market, they make around 70% of the profit in the that market. I hardly call that punishing.

I think they realize that this position is no more sustainable than their position was in the desktop market and they're acting out of fear. If you've used a recent, high-end Android phone you know that the quality gap is mostly gone and that the apps that most people care about are now available on both platforms. Apple is not going to be able to sustain their astonishing profit margins without the help of the court…

Don't forget that Apple has a mountain of cash and an insane advantage in the tablet market. Macs are on the rise too. All this can be used to keep people in the Apple ecosystem. (iCloud is surprisingly meh, though.)

Not saying that Apple will succeed, but the future doesn't seem so clear to me.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#233

Post by bkorte » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 3:04 AM UTC

recoiledsnake wrote: post #227

pooriaazimi wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the market has punished [Apple] for it You're serious? They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market, with Samsung at the second place (26%) and HTC, third (1%), their stock is booming, they have more money in the bank than all of their competitors combined (they can buy Samsung, HTC and Dell and shut them down and still have a few billion dollars left). I'd call that reward, not punishment. http://www.asymco.co…

>They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market I chuckle every time I hear this. How much profit of the web server market does Microsoft take with IIS vs. the free alternatives like Apache and Nginx? Who wins in the Server OS market of Windows Server vs. Linux/BSD? Who dominates the web dev tools market of Visual Studio vs. Eclipse/etc. ? The same arguments you make can be made against the above too. The idea of p…

You do understand that businesses exist to make money, right? Profit share is one of the few metrics that matter.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#234

Post by panacea » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 3:05 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #212

josephlord wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Samsung get away without an injunction (decided by the judge I think) then just paying and ending the issue and embarrassing press may be the wise course. It is only a billion dollars which Samsung can definitely afford. It could be seen as a cost of business and particularly the cost of becoming the number 2 smartphone manufacturer in the world and the only one really able to put products at the same price as App…

Don't imagine that this ruling will be the end of Apple's war on Android. An emboldened Apple is going to go on the legal warpath like never before.

You make an assertion about future ctions by Apple as if it was fact. I tend to think Apple was particularly butt-hurt specifically over the trade dress stuff (rightfully so IMO). Why would this ruling lead to other flavours of Android being targetted so intensely?

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#235

Post by cageface » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 3:05 AM UTC

gurkendoktor wrote: post #232

cageface wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they realize that this position is no more sustainable than their position was in the desktop market and they're acting out of fear. If you've used a recent, high-end Android phone you know that the quality gap is mostly gone and that the apps that most people care about are now available on both platforms. Apple is not going to be able to sustain their astonishing profit margins without the help of the court…

Don't forget that Apple has a mountain of cash and an insane advantage in the tablet market. Macs are on the rise too. All this can be used to keep people in the Apple ecosystem. (iCloud is surprisingly meh, though.) Not saying that Apple will succeed, but the future doesn't seem so clear to me.

I think Apple is here to stay but I don't see how they can sustain their phenomenal profit levels if their market share keeps slipping unless they keep winning in the courts.

What I'd like to see is a healthy market with two or three real competitors. It's much better for consumers and developers than another decade of monoculture protected by patent minefields.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#236

Post by tptacek » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 3:06 AM UTC

recoiledsnake wrote: post #227

pooriaazimi wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the market has punished [Apple] for it You're serious? They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market, with Samsung at the second place (26%) and HTC, third (1%), their stock is booming, they have more money in the bank than all of their competitors combined (they can buy Samsung, HTC and Dell and shut them down and still have a few billion dollars left). I'd call that reward, not punishment. http://www.asymco.co…

>They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market I chuckle every time I hear this. How much profit of the web server market does Microsoft take with IIS vs. the free alternatives like Apache and Nginx? Who wins in the Server OS market of Windows Server vs. Linux/BSD? Who dominates the web dev tools market of Visual Studio vs. Eclipse/etc. ? The same arguments you make can be made against the above too. The idea of p…

Since when did profit become the one and true metric?

This is like wondering whether you'd be better off running a grocery store rather than a software business. Profit is the only metric. The idea that this notion started with Apple is strange.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#237

Post by ellyagg » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 3:07 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #210

programminggeek wrote: post #10

This is both unsurprising and somewhat meaningless as there will be an appeals process that will last for months and possibly years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that Samsung made their products to look like Apple products. They changed their icon styles and other UI elements away from Android standards to match the Apple style. Some of the things Apple invented and patented on like pinch to zoom an…

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patents. But this is nothing more than a smoke screen for their ongoing proxy war on Android. They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. Expect more attacks on Android seeking ridiculous dama…

Apart from the specifics of this or any other court case involving Apple attacking Samsung, I find the desire to defend Samsung odd. Obviously they copied Apple as much as they felt they could get away with. They did this because it was a very conservative way to make a lot of money.

This isn't an admirable strategy. It's annoying. It's precisely the strategy that major movie studios use to give us one boring, risk-free "blockbuster" after another. The other day I read a history of the making of White Men Can't Jump:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8266665/an-oral-history-...

The head of Fox at the time, Joe Roth, mentions, "That movie wouldn't get made today. Us moviemaking guys, the studios, have less courage to make a movie like that today with the kind of racial, sexual overtones." It's sad. I would appreciate a big budget movie studio that did not consistently churn out the safest derivative crap they can.

I do appreciate that there's one consumer electronics company that attempts and succeeds at novel, high risk products. Of course, there's a good chance that risk taking spark died recently, but I have appreciated its presence until now.

Maybe patents are bad, but I don't think is a case where that stance holds much emotional appeal other than to those who like to see Apple lose. Most people think Samsung clearly did something shady here and deserves to be punished.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#238

Post by zmmmmm » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 3:08 AM UTC

programminggeek wrote: post #10

This is both unsurprising and somewhat meaningless as there will be an appeals process that will last for months and possibly years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that Samsung made their products to look like Apple products. They changed their icon styles and other UI elements away from Android standards to match the Apple style. Some of the things Apple invented and patented on like pinch to zoom an…

> somewhat meaningless

It's not meaningless if it means a large cross section of the most popular Android phones are banned, even for a short time. Hopefully Samsung has already got software workarounds ready to deploy.

> Some of the things Apple invented and patented on like pinch to zoom

Please don't say rubbish like that. It is so clearly obvious that Apple didn't invent pinch to zoom, and even if they didn't, it's so dumb and obvious that it wouldn't be patentable anyway (hence why the various people who demonstrated it over the last 2 decades didn't bother). Apple patented some refinements to pinch-to-zoom and other gestures.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#239

Post by tlholaday » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 3:10 AM UTC

Xcelerate wrote: post #130

danudey wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's pinch-to-zoom patent was filed on December 29, 2006, and covers a multitouch display that a) detects two contacts; b) which perform a gesture; c) which affects an image; d) and then the contacts disconnect; e) after which a second set of contacts is detected; f) which perform another operation within a set period of time. In other words, patent #7,812,826 only applies when you pinch to zoom and then pinch to…

Wouldn't it be great to just program things without worrying about patenting what you've done or whether someone else has patented it?

Wouldn't it be great to just copy successful devices without paying a designer?

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#240

Post by wmf » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 3:10 AM UTC

RichardButler wrote: post #183

I wonder if this will actually end up hurting Apple's bottom line in the end. Samsung is one of Apples largest hardware providers and one of the few that can produce screens of sufficient resolution for Apple's retina displays. Wouldn't be surprised if Samsung recoups their loses just by raising their hardware prices.

If Samsung tried to raise prices for components, Apple would just buy those components somewhere else, causing Samsung's revenue to tank. Just look at what happened to PortalPlayer.