Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#211

Post by electromagnetic » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:00 AM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #182

nirvana wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big misunderstanding of patents. Patents don't cover ideas, but inventions. "Pinch to zoom" is a feature, and the idea of doing that is not patentable by Apple or Jeff Han. It is the implementation that is patentable, and Apple's touch technology is very different from Jeff Hans'. It's quite possible that both could legitimately patent their inventions.... just as the rotory and the piston engines can both…

Your understanding disagrees with current law.

Current law, as upheld by juries lacking sufficient knowledge, disagrees with the intent of the law.

Patents don't cover ideas, they cover implementation. Literally if your way of implementing something is the non-obvious way to make something more efficient, you are granted the right to exclusive use of it.

Apple, by act of jury, now has a patent on the idea and not the implementation. The patent is on a capacitive touch screen, but is a jury going to uphold a patent if it is an optical touchscreen? What if I use pinch-zoom on my Kinect?

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#212

Post by cageface » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:01 AM UTC

josephlord wrote: post #155

programminggeek wrote: post #10

This is both unsurprising and somewhat meaningless as there will be an appeals process that will last for months and possibly years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that Samsung made their products to look like Apple products. They changed their icon styles and other UI elements away from Android standards to match the Apple style. Some of the things Apple invented and patented on like pinch to zoom an…

If Samsung get away without an injunction (decided by the judge I think) then just paying and ending the issue and embarrassing press may be the wise course. It is only a billion dollars which Samsung can definitely afford. It could be seen as a cost of business and particularly the cost of becoming the number 2 smartphone manufacturer in the world and the only one really able to put products at the same price as App…

Don't imagine that this ruling will be the end of Apple's war on Android. An emboldened Apple is going to go on the legal warpath like never before.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#213

Post by radley » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:03 AM UTC

mbreese wrote: post #181

notatoad wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was obvious that samsung tried to make their devices look and feel like apple devices. what isn't obvious is why apple should have exclusive ownership over things making a stretching gesture with your fingers to make something bigger. not only were they not the first to implement it, it is entirely a natural movement and is not something that should be anybody's property.

Yeah, because I do that all the time to my newspaper to see the small print. It's a natural movement now , but in 2006, not so much.

A lot of this stuff was done in Flash for years. Multi-touch screens is what made it different, not Apple design.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#214

Post by nitrogen » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:03 AM UTC

taligent wrote: post #185

nitrogen wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Koh had very little to do with it. Apart from approving or rejecting every piece of evidence and testimony the jury would receive, which power could easily be used to create a reality distortion field around the jury... I'm not actually accusing Koh, just noting that juries are shown a very carefully constructed picture that is largely controlled by the judge, and may or may not resemble reality.

But since you're not accusing Koh and have no evidence then basically what you wrote is irrelevant to this case.

It is relevant to your previous comment, which claimed that Koh had "little to do with" the jury's decision.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#215

Post by 37prime » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:03 AM UTC

saurik wrote: post #193

nitrogen wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the phrase "patents required to build a smartphone address book" alone make you think that the patent system is broken?

On a similar note, I find the idea that future non-Apple devices might have been required to be triangular absolutely hilarious. > The only patent the jury found that Samsung didn't infringe relates to the design of a tablet as having a rectangular shape and rounded corners. Throughout the trial, Samsung's lawyers frequently remarked that Apple shouldn't be given a monopoly on a rectangle with rounded corners. -- onl…

Triangular Tablets?

Two Words: Dunder Mifflin

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#216

Post by lotu » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:12 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #210

programminggeek wrote: post #10

This is both unsurprising and somewhat meaningless as there will be an appeals process that will last for months and possibly years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that Samsung made their products to look like Apple products. They changed their icon styles and other UI elements away from Android standards to match the Apple style. Some of the things Apple invented and patented on like pinch to zoom an…

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patents. But this is nothing more than a smoke screen for their ongoing proxy war on Android. They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. Expect more attacks on Android seeking ridiculous dama…

While Apple may only have 30% of the smart-phone market, they make around 70% of the profit in the that market. I hardly call that punishing.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#217

Post by cageface » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:16 AM UTC

lotu wrote: post #216

cageface wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patents. But this is nothing more than a smoke screen for their ongoing proxy war on Android. They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. Expect more attacks on Android seeking ridiculous dama…

While Apple may only have 30% of the smart-phone market, they make around 70% of the profit in the that market. I hardly call that punishing.

I think they realize that this position is no more sustainable than their position was in the desktop market and they're acting out of fear.

If you've used a recent, high-end Android phone you know that the quality gap is mostly gone and that the apps that most people care about are now available on both platforms. Apple is not going to be able to sustain their astonishing profit margins without the help of the courts.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#218

Post by pooriaazimi » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:18 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #210

programminggeek wrote: post #10

This is both unsurprising and somewhat meaningless as there will be an appeals process that will last for months and possibly years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that Samsung made their products to look like Apple products. They changed their icon styles and other UI elements away from Android standards to match the Apple style. Some of the things Apple invented and patented on like pinch to zoom an…

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patents. But this is nothing more than a smoke screen for their ongoing proxy war on Android. They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. Expect more attacks on Android seeking ridiculous dama…

> the market has punished [Apple] for it

You're serious? They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market, with Samsung at the second place (26%) and HTC, third (1%), their stock is booming, they have more money in the bank than all of their competitors combined (they can buy Samsung, HTC and Dell and shut them down and still have a few billion dollars left).

I'd call that reward, not punishment.

http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/03/the-phone-market-in-2012-a-...

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#219

Post by nitrogen » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:18 AM UTC

taligent wrote: post #179

nitrogen wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care how strongly you disagree, ad homs like "dumb" and "ignorant" have no place on a civil discussion forum. Please stop being so inflammatory.

Firstly, it isn't an ad hominem attack. I said the comment was dumb and ignorant. I didn't say he was. Secondly, the comment is taken of context because shawnee keeps editing and deleting comments. Thirdly, what is worse than having inflammatory comments is one like these from people who aren't actually contributing to the discussion. Is there a need to be so condescending ?

Firstly, it isn't an ad hominem attack. I said the comment was dumb and ignorant. I didn't say he was.

You said "Looking forward to plenty of truly dumb, ignorant comments like this in the future," which implies that the author of the original comment will be making such comments. This is an attack on the character or intelligence of the author, and is thus an ad hominem.

Secondly, the comment is taken of context because shawnee keeps editing and deleting comments.

This is remedied by quoting the part of the comment you want to highlight in your response. I use HN's asterisks-to-italics formatting for quotations; others use spaces to activate a

block (be sure to insert manual line breaks if you use this method).

Thirdly, what is worse than having inflammatory comments is one like these from people who aren't actually contributing to the discussion. Is there a need to be so condescending ?

Sometimes voting and flagging aren't enough to signal that a discussion is getting out of hand, and a direct comment is required. You will find that I contributed on-topic responses elsewhere, including a response to another comment of yours.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#220

Post by electromagnetic » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:19 AM UTC

kapnobatairza wrote: post #81

programminggeek wrote: post #10

This is both unsurprising and somewhat meaningless as there will be an appeals process that will last for months and possibly years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that Samsung made their products to look like Apple products. They changed their icon styles and other UI elements away from Android standards to match the Apple style. Some of the things Apple invented and patented on like pinch to zoom an…

I think it is fair to say that Samsung may have crossed some lines as far as "trade dress" goes. But did Apple really invent pinch to zoom? Jeff Han demonstrated pinch to zoom gestures at TED in 2006, Microsoft Surface in 2007 before the iPhone was released, and I've seen various forms of "pinch to zoom" on different tablets and smart board applications. I think that Apple did a good job developing some multi-touch i…

> I think it is invalid to say they "invented" anything as intuitive as pinch to zoom which has been demonstrated in a variety of prototypes, tablets, and applications over 2 decades.

The lunacy here is that apple wasn't even granted the patent over a specific gesture. IE pinch=zoom in and spread=zoom out or vice versa. It's that the movement of pinching/spreading has been patented here in all and every application of the gesture as it would inherently be used for zoom function, despite it being demonstrated prior to that date.

This is like Microsofts multi-click patent, that patents all mouse clicks that can have different functionality. short/long/multiple clicks.

It's like granting Kleenex a patent over all facial tissues and the right to use a piece of tissue for your face. The only competitive idea being a facial cloth like a hankie.