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Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

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Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#31

Post by JoshTriplett »

topspin wrote: post #20
moomin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I’m a Windows user so I have no dog in this fight, but it seems like the principal implants are that it’s slower, less responsive and less stable than the alternative. This seems like a primary use case. I’m not sure what the wider use cases you’re thinking of that justify the switch.

> it’s slower, less responsive and less stable And the remote application/desktop story is terrible. I won't consider it until remote is at least as good or better than Xorg, and I don't foresee that happening in my lifetime (literally,) so Wayland will remain a bugbear I'll continue ignoring. I don't know and can't imagine how a recently promulgated desktop GUI platform that doesn't have remote as top priority came…

The remote application/desktop story works wonderfully with Wayland. Pipewire is the first time that screen sharing has Just Worked for me. GNOME's remote desktop seems to work fine as well, and reportedly so does KDE's.

You may wish to check the current status. (If you are not a GNOME fan, try KDE; if you are not a GNOME and KDE fan, I'd still suggest checking the quality of their features for the things you care about, to confirm what a Wayland-based environment is capable of; don't judge the quality of X11 by trying an equivalent of twm.)

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#32

Post by panzi »

GuestFAUniverse wrote: post #26

If you don't bother about any app being able to spoof on your pressed keys: go, use Xorg. But why stop there, and cope with a multi-user environment? Just boot into single user mode and "chmod a+rwx / -R". A lot of other /problems/ solved too. /S

How do accessibility tools work with that? They need to examine and control other running processes.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#33

Post by treve »

[project] is bad because it's missing [pet peeve feature] will never get old. Ultimately open source devs work on what they want to work on. Feature-wise Wayland may be worse in some ways than X11 and better in others, but it's winning because people work on it/with it.

But choice and competition is one of the best things about Linux, so if a small group is upset about losing X11 and self-organize to carry the torch, more power to them. Build a great alternative, and maybe present yourself as a choice rather than being so reactionary. You're not a rebel, you're just in a niche and that's OK.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#35

Post by markasoftware »

sudobash1 wrote: post #29
MarkusWandel wrote: post #21

I get it about Wayland. Most of X is legacy cruft and even isolating that into XWayland or whatever it's called for backwards compatibility is better than having it front and center. But yes, there are use cases it doesn't cover. Example. My elderly mom uses Linux laptops that I've rigged to (1) always have an SSH connection open to my server machine, with reverse tunnels, and (2) run x0vncserver. Modern security peo…

This is true with more "modern" setups. I tried rustdesk with Wayland. It somewhat works, but you have to be present at the "remote" PC to click a button allowing the sharing. I periodically retry Wayland, and it does seem to be improving, albeit slowly. There are a few significant things that just aren't there, but mostly it feels like death by a thousand paper-cuts. I can't dock toolbars; I can't use xdotools; scre…

rustdesk is a little sketchy https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/14kjvkg/communi...

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#37

Post by treve »

MarkusWandel wrote: post #21

I get it about Wayland. Most of X is legacy cruft and even isolating that into XWayland or whatever it's called for backwards compatibility is better than having it front and center. But yes, there are use cases it doesn't cover. Example. My elderly mom uses Linux laptops that I've rigged to (1) always have an SSH connection open to my server machine, with reverse tunnels, and (2) run x0vncserver. Modern security peo…

Does Waypipe solve this problem?

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#38

Post by markasoftware »

anglesideangle wrote: post #28

As someone who actively uses a wayland compositor and has done so since switching to linux ~4 years ago, I often feel like I live in a different world from the authors of articles discussing its usability. Just to discuss a few points made about wayland's supposed inferiority: > Wayland cannot do (or do well) tons of things: > VNC server > remote desktop I don't regularly use either of these so I cannot attest to whe…

the remote desktop stuff is important for some. Waypipe was very slow last time I tried it.

That all being said, I actually found the remote desktop situation to be /okay/ on wayland. `gnome-remote-desktop` is decent; though it uses quite a lot of bandwidth, it appeared to be smoother than xrdp when that bandwidth is available. And the sunshine/moonlight pair, while intended for game streaming, worked fine as a usual remote desktop server/client under wayland.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#39

Post by bigstrat2003 »

panzi wrote: post #30
timewizard wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The README being stuffed with political dogwhistles is downright weird For reasons I've never understood politics started invading open source about 10 years ago. What's weird is that these political ideas all seem to be highly aligned and this is the first major project that breaks that alignment. Personally I'd prefer to see the politics, on both sides, disappear forever. It only pollutes the engineering and it f…

Open source is inherently political. I think it's anti-capitalist and I remember how pro-capitalist people called it communist back in the 90s/00s. Saying open source isn't political is almost like saying Star Trek isn't political.

No it isn't. I have contributed to, and used, many open source projects without it ever being political. All I did was share work I created because it might help someone out, or use a tool I found useful.

Some people choose to make open source political and that's their right, but it isn't inherently political. That is a choice one makes.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#40

Post by lelanthran »

GuestFAUniverse wrote: post #26

If you don't bother about any app being able to spoof on your pressed keys: go, use Xorg. But why stop there, and cope with a multi-user environment? Just boot into single user mode and "chmod a+rwx / -R". A lot of other /problems/ solved too. /S

> If you don't bother about any app being able to spoof on your pressed keys: go, use Xorg.

The correct response to "All applications can spoof keypresses or act as a keylogger" is "Okay, force user to grant permission before an application does this".

The Wayland response is "No application should be allowed to do this".

Whether you like it or not, sometimes users actually want functionality that you deem is insecure, and you gotta find a way to deliver what Windows, MacOS and X11 all deliver.

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