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US ambassador to Israel:US no longer pursuing goal independent Palestinian state

theguardian.com

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Re: US ambassador to Israel:US no longer pursuing goal independent Palestinian state

#61

Post by runarberg »

dlubarov wrote: post #56
runarberg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everywhere: Ramat Eshkol was established as a Jewish neighborhood soon after the 1967 occupation. It is one of 9 inner settlements in East Jerusalem where Palestinians are not allowed. These “just not people from a specific territory” are Palestinians who are Christian or Muslim, because of their ethnicity, regardless of criminal history. This is segregation.

By Palestinians do you mean Palestinian nationals? Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are certainly allowed Ramat Eshkol, like any other community.

You know that doesn’t happen, and you know why. Israel has extreme racial discrimination, and the settlers that live in these neighborhoods are the some of the worst case of racial sectarian violence.

There are around 220,000 Jewish Israeli Settlers living in East Jerusalem, how many non-jewish Israelis do you think live in these neighborhoods? I tried to search for the number but couldn’t. I would be surprised if it is more then a 1000.

Whether this reality is because of policy or not is not what I am debating (although the answer seems kind of obvious; unless you dispute Israel’s apartheid policies). The reality is that Jerusalem is currently a segregated city.

Re: US ambassador to Israel:US no longer pursuing goal independent Palestinian state

#62

Post by runarberg »

nailer wrote: post #55
runarberg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everywhere: Ramat Eshkol was established as a Jewish neighborhood soon after the 1967 occupation. It is one of 9 inner settlements in East Jerusalem where Palestinians are not allowed. These “just not people from a specific territory” are Palestinians who are Christian or Muslim, because of their ethnicity, regardless of criminal history. This is segregation.

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Re: US ambassador to Israel:US no longer pursuing goal independent Palestinian state

#63

Post by tguvot »

runarberg wrote: post #60
tguvot wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about it ? if somebody wants to rent/sell and their offer is accepted, they can move in. on the other side, in "palestinian state" for selling real estate to Israeli there is a death sentence.

If you said this about black people in the USA it would correctly be marked as extremely racist. Saying this about Palestinians is also very racist, participatory since there are people on this very thread flat out denying the existence of Palestinians ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44259547 ).

i have no idea what you are talking about here. i didn't deny anything.

But if you want to talk about denial, here is prominent PLO leader denying existence of Palestinians: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen . I guess he is racist ?

Also Mosab Hassan Yousef famously denies existence of Palestinians. Is he racist as well ?

Re: US ambassador to Israel:US no longer pursuing goal independent Palestinian state

#64

Post by nailer »

d3ckard wrote: post #32
nailer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neighbours have always attacked en masse: in 1948 they attacked en masse and lost and a Jewish state was established, in 1967 they attacked en masse and lost and Israel gained Judea and Samaria / West bank, in 1973 they attacked en masse and lost. Plus various combinations of Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah attacking since, and losing.

Dear, past performance does not predict the future one. Israel hasn't done anything to build good will, on the opposite, they are increasingly negatively viewed, at least in Europe. Some wars you lose.

Sure, they’ve signed peace accords with egypt, saudi arabia and jordan, the UAE, Bahrain and Morocco.

Europe has always disliked Jews, they’re just more open about it now that europe is increasingly Islamified.

Re: US ambassador to Israel:US no longer pursuing goal independent Palestinian state

#65

Post by dlubarov »

runarberg wrote: post #61
dlubarov wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By Palestinians do you mean Palestinian nationals? Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are certainly allowed Ramat Eshkol, like any other community.

You know that doesn’t happen, and you know why. Israel has extreme racial discrimination, and the settlers that live in these neighborhoods are the some of the worst case of racial sectarian violence. There are around 220,000 Jewish Israeli Settlers living in East Jerusalem, how many non-jewish Israelis do you think live in these neighborhoods? I tried to search for the number but couldn’t. I would be surprised if it…

So just to clarify, when you said "Palestinians are not allowed", you meant that they are allowed but might experience racism? Why not say that?

> how many non-jewish Israelis do you think live in these neighborhoods

Both Ramat Eshkol and East Jerusalem more broadly are majority Arab.

Re: US ambassador to Israel:US no longer pursuing goal independent Palestinian state

#66

Post by runarberg »

dlubarov wrote: post #65
runarberg wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that doesn’t happen, and you know why. Israel has extreme racial discrimination, and the settlers that live in these neighborhoods are the some of the worst case of racial sectarian violence. There are around 220,000 Jewish Israeli Settlers living in East Jerusalem, how many non-jewish Israelis do you think live in these neighborhoods? I tried to search for the number but couldn’t. I would be surprised if it…

So just to clarify, when you said "Palestinians are not allowed", you meant that they are allowed but might experience racism? Why not say that? > how many non-jewish Israelis do you think live in these neighborhoods Both Ramat Eshkol and East Jerusalem more broadly are majority Arab.

I feel like you are trying to catch me in a contradiction. You may very well success (if you haven’t already) I am not good at debating. All I am trying to say is that Jerusalem is a segregated city now, like it was during the Roman period, but unlike during the Arab or the Ottoman rule.

> Both Ramat Eshkol and East Jerusalem more broadly are majority Arab.

East Jerusalem is yes. But there are inner settlements which exclude a certain ethnicity, which makes the city segregated.

Where did you get the information that Ramat Eshkol was majority Arab? I tried to search online and all I saw was the fact that it was a Jewish Neighborhood (a funny way to describe an illegal settlement).

https://www.jpost.com/business-and-innovation/real-estate/ar...

Re: US ambassador to Israel:US no longer pursuing goal independent Palestinian state

#67

Post by runarberg »

tguvot wrote: post #63
runarberg wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you said this about black people in the USA it would correctly be marked as extremely racist. Saying this about Palestinians is also very racist, participatory since there are people on this very thread flat out denying the existence of Palestinians ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44259547 ).

i have no idea what you are talking about here. i didn't deny anything. But if you want to talk about denial, here is prominent PLO leader denying existence of Palestinians: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen . I guess he is racist ? Also Mosab Hassan Yousef famously denies existence of Palestinians. Is he racist as well ?

I didn’t accuse you of denying the existence of Palestinans, I merely pointed out there are other people on this thread that do. Your rhetoric about the displacement of Palestinians as if there is only some free-market/free-choice dynamic at play, but not a systematic exclusion of Palestinians from certain parts of the city lends it self well with the people on this threat that go even further then you in their racist beliefs.

> Also Mosab Hassan Yousef famously denies existence of Palestinians. Is he racist as well?

Yes.

Regarding Zuheir Mohsen there is a difference when you deny your ethnicity in solidarity with your neighbors with a common cause, then when you deny the existence of an indigenous population who are suffering at the hands of an oppressive settler colonial power. Zuheir Mohsen is doing the former while Mosab Hassan Yousef is doing the latter. Only the latter is racist.

Re: US ambassador to Israel:US no longer pursuing goal independent Palestinian state

#69

Post by tguvot »

runarberg wrote: post #67
tguvot wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i have no idea what you are talking about here. i didn't deny anything. But if you want to talk about denial, here is prominent PLO leader denying existence of Palestinians: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen . I guess he is racist ? Also Mosab Hassan Yousef famously denies existence of Palestinians. Is he racist as well ?

I didn’t accuse you of denying the existence of Palestinans, I merely pointed out there are other people on this thread that do. Your rhetoric about the displacement of Palestinians as if there is only some free-market/free-choice dynamic at play, but not a systematic exclusion of Palestinians from certain parts of the city lends it self well with the people on this threat that go even further then you in their racis…

i had no rhetoric on displacement of Palestinians. On the other side you repeatedly ignore that segregation of Jerusalem and ethnic cleansing of Jews from there and entire west bank was result of Jordanian aggression.

There is no systemic exclusion of palestinians from certain parts of the city. Your proofs are random real-estate articles about new neighborhoods been build.

>Regarding Zuheir Mohsen there is a difference when you deny your ethnicity in solidarity with your neighbors with a common cause,

You should revisit the quote. he doesn't deny it in solidarity. He says that it was invented: "The Palestinian people does not exist … there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese. Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of one people, the Arab nation [...] Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons[...] Once we have acquired all our rights in all of Palestine, we must not delay for a moment the reunification of Jordan and Palestine".

You also seems not to be familiar with Mosam Hassan Yousef. I'll suggest you to find some of his talks where he describes west bank in 80s and how things rolled from there.

To be honest, I find your rhetoric borderline racist, both towards jewish refugees that exercised their right of return and self determination and towards palestinians whom you deny any agency (you literally called palestinian racist towards palestinians, because you think that you understand local matters better) and touching base with blood libels

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