Live data from Hacker News

Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

port.ac.uk

511–520 of 647 posts

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think profits are important?

I would think that profits are important to investors, since that's why they invest in the first place. Maybe not though.

The original claim was "Most jobs are really not important either, they just keep people busy." Causing numbers to change on a balance sheet is not important, unless that corresponds to actual worthwhile work – in which case, the worthwhile work is what matters, and the balance sheet is just an artefact of accounting for it.

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you agree with the above comment, doesn't that make you an atheist, not agnostic?

Atheists are people that don't bleieve there is a God. Agnostics are people who don't know they are atheists. -- Aron Ra

In practice, atheists are people who think they know there is no god. Agnostics are people who realize they don’t know much at all about anything related to the origins of things and realize they don’t want to hold unprovable dogmatic beliefs like the religious people do.

I considered myself an atheist for most of my life. As I got older and learned more, this shifted. These days I consider myself agnostic.

If atheism was defined as believing a specific kind of god (e.g. the “father god in the sky that created all things in 6 days”) does not exist, I’d still consider myself an atheist.

But my agnosticism comes from an acknowledgment of our fundamentally limited understanding of certain aspects of existence, and the implications of that specific lack of understanding.

It’s not as if I believe “well maybe the god of Abraham could be real after all but I don’t know” (it seems far more likely that if there’s a god, he/she/it/they are closer to being the stuff of existence than some standalone entity). It’s more that I withhold belief entirely and don’t make absolute claims that are philosophically untenable.

If we figure out how consciousness works or achieve breakthroughs in physics, I could imagine calling myself an atheist again. Until then, agnosticism seems like the most intellectually honest position.

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#514

stupid question: if at the beginning of the universe (before the big bang) all the matter was in the very same spot, shouldn't this have been effectively been a black hole due to the extreme density? if so, how could it explode if nothing can escape a black hole?

Black holes may contain a second event horizon in the center, like a Poisson's spot. So it was the Big Rip, when this spot was born.

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#515
I have two problems / questions with this:

1. This theory requires a parent universe that can't have been formed inside a black hole. This means there must a be second "universe creation" mechanism that we can / may never know about from our child universe. For me, this doesn't really answer the true question: "How did our universe begin?" Yeah, it may the "unknown field with strange properties" but instead we get an unknown parent universe with strange properties.

2. The black hole in the parent universe must be much much bigger than anything we see in ours since it has to contain all the matter that we see. How is a black hole supposed to form that is 750 billion times bigger than the largest black hole we know about?

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#516
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Predicting inflation rates may be harder than discovering the birth of the universe actually, because it would require perfect knowledge of the present and by the time you compute it it's out of date.

We can claim to simulate the first femtoseconds of the universe...model nuclear detonations in software down to quantum effects....but 340 million citizens buying gas and groceries? That’s somehow beyond our grasp... :-) Maybe the problem isn’t complexity, but that science gets arrogant when it drifts into realms where its claims can’t be falsified ;-)

>Maybe the problem isn’t complexity

It most certainly is. Each of those 340 million citizens is a unique person, with unique circumstances. You can't fit an equation to that.

>science gets arrogant where its claims can't be falsified

This article proposes testable predictions?

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#517
If the universe does have a positive curvature as this predicts, would that mean that if we look out into space, we could see the same galaxies multiple times? Or even our own galaxy in the past? Or is the predicted curvature slight enough that anything we might see multiple times is already beyond the limits of visibility due to universe expansion?

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#518

Oh I have so many questions on this topic. I've often wondered about this. I don't have any direct physics training, but it's something that felt really plausible after I learned that the mass of a black hole is linearly proportional to its swarzschild radius. As the size of the black hole goes up, its overall density must decrease. Combined with the other observation that our universe has uniform density at large sc…

I think given time at a blackboard we could walk through Newton's cannon in the context of Poisson gravity, and for extra credit with the cannonball inducing a perturbation of the Poisson vector field. Even without the cannonball's backreaction, the Poisson picture offers a nice image of the gravitational potential energy at the top of the cannonball's inertial (ballistic) curve. We would then consider a cosmology like our own but with a recollapse: at maximum extent there is some (quasi-)Newtonian notion of gravitational potential energy for all the galaxies, since they are at the point where they begin free-falling back into a denser configuration. It's then the usual story of relating kinetic and potential energy, and recognizing that the standard cosmological frame is close to Newtonian by design. (We also have to stop this approach when the galaxies are merging enough that radiation pressure and gas ram pressure become relevant, because the errors become astronomical).

Since we don't have a blackboard in front of us to interact with, I can suggest Alan Guth's lecture notes on Newtonian cosmology. (Guth is credited with discovering cosmic inflation.) https://web.mit.edu/8.286/www/lecn18/ln03-euf18.pdf See around eqn (3.3). You could also borrow a copy of Baumann's textbook https://www.cambridge.org/highereducation/books/cosmology/53...> which studies the Poisson equation for various spacetimes, however a static spacetime gets most of the focus.

A universe which expands forever, or which expands faster in the later universe, makes a mess of this sort of approach to calculating a gravitational potential energy. So does any apparent recession velocity that's a large fraction of c (inducing significant redshift, whatever the recession (pseudo-)"force" might be).

However, the general idea is that there is a relationship between the kinetic energy a receding galaxy (in a system of coordinates -- a "frame" -- in which these kinematics appear) and a gravitational potential energy still occurs in a non-recollapsing universe. It's just that the potential energy climbs forever, and you get an equivalent to gravitational time dilation between galaxies at different gravitational potentials (i.e., between early-universe galaxies and higher-potential modern-times galaxies).

Accelerometers in galaxies will not show a cosmic acceleration for any galaxy; they're all really close to freely-falling (local galaxy-galaxy interactions are real -- collisions and mergers and close-calls happen -- but wash out over cosmological distances; look up "peculiar velocity" for details). Therefore we can conclude that there's no real force imposing acceleration on the galaxies. However that's also true of a cannonball in a ballistic trajectory, including one on an escape trajectory or one that enters into a stable orbit. Consequently one can draw some practical comparisons between a ballistic launch from Earth into deep space and galaxies spreading out from an initially denser early part of an expanding cosmos.

> Dark energy as energy being extracted out of the universe

No, it's just a way of thinking about whatever is driving the expansion, and that doesn't dilute away with the expansion as ordinary matter and radiation does. It's not even a "real" energy in the sense that it is only an energy in the cosmological frame, and is a frame-dependent scalar quantity, whereas in the fuller theory it's just a multiplier of the metric tensor. So it's the full relativistic metric doing the work but we absorb some of that into cosmological coordinates in the cosmological frame of reference, carving up the metric tensor into a set of vectors including an expansion vector identical at every point in spacetime.

The expansion vector can also be thought of in terms of pressure: in a collapsing cosmological frame, a pressure drives galaxies together into a denser configuration. The inverse of pressure is tension, so in an expanding cosmological frame, it's a tension that pulls galaxies apart into a sparser configuration. (The reason one uses pressure or its inverse is that the matter fields are idealized as a set of perfect fluids at rest in the cosmological frame; each such fluid has an associated density and internal pressure which evolve with the expansion or contraction of the cosmos, generally becoming less positive in the time-direction of expansion (i.e., in the future direction in a universe like ours). Another way of thinking about pressure is as a measure of isotropic inflow of energy-momentum into a point; increasing pressure at a point therefore increases the curvature at that point. Tension is an isotropic outflow, and so positive tension is repulsive as opposed to the attraction from positive pressure.)

> that explanation felt unsatisfactory to me

Hopefully the above helps a bit. Unfortunately there's only so much teaching one might do in a series of HN comments, and ultimately one probably is better served in developing some grounding in the full Einstein Field Equations / Friedmann-Lemaître equations before thinking in quasi-Newtonian ways. Going the other direction tends to lead to misunderstandings and developing false intuitions when running into situations where the quasi-Newtonian picture needs post-Newtonian correction terms.

It's cool that you have all sorts of questions. You could consider signing up for part time / non-business-hours courses in relativity at a nearby community college or the equivalent, depending on where you are, or maybe just bringing a hot lunch to a lecturer there in exchange for a quick informal tutorial. Anything like that is bound to get you to better answers than raising comments on HN threads about astrophysics in the broadest sense, as answers here are often somewhere between non-standard and unreliable.

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#519
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you cross a black hole's event horizon, the radial coordinate becomes timelike, so you lose one degree of spatial freedom. The second half is incorrect. Since the time coordinate becomes spacelike in turn you'll still have 3 spatial degrees of freedom. Dimensions can't just vanish if you believe that spacetime is a 4D Lorentzian manifold (as physicists do). Moreover, the singularity is not a place you can poke…

I don't think the spacetime swap idea is particularly well explained though? Like although it's sort of mathematically true, my impression was that it's not like time suddenly becomes a dimension you're moving in once inside the event horizon, just that spacetime is acting so weird because there's now a deliberate direction where one did not exist before.

> I don't think the spacetime swap idea is particularly well explained though?

What exactly do you mean by "spacetime swap idea"? If you're saying the behavior of Schwarzschild coordinates at the event horizon is not well-understood, then I disagree. There is nothing particularly weird or surprising going on, there's just a trapped surface[0].

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapped_surface

Re: Research suggests Big Bang may have taken place inside a black hole

#520
post #515

I have two problems / questions with this: 1. This theory requires a parent universe that can't have been formed inside a black hole. This means there must a be second "universe creation" mechanism that we can / may never know about from our child universe. For me, this doesn't really answer the true question: "How did our universe begin?" Yeah, it may the "unknown field with strange properties" but instead we get an…

Wouldn't every theory/model of the universe leave room for follow up questions? Why is it problematic if it doesn't answer literally every conceivable quandary?
Post reply on HN