51–60 of 308 posts
I wonder how many people that use agents actually like "programming", as in coming up with a solution to the problem and then being able to express that in code. It seems like a lot of the work that the agents are doing is removing that and instead making you have to explain what you want in natural language and hope the LLM doesn't introduce bugs
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I have to flip the question, what is it that people like about it? I certainly don't enjoy writing code for problems that have already been solved a thousand times. We reach for a dictionary, we don't write a hash table from scratch every time, that's only fun the first time you do it. If I could go "give me a working compiler for this language" or "solve this problem using a depth-first search" I wouldn't enjoy prog…
Why do people enjoy going to the gym? Those weights have already been lifted a thousand times. I enjoy writing code because of the satisfaction that comes from solving a problem, from being able to create a working thing out of my own head, and to hopefully see myself getting better at programming. I could augment my programming abilities with an LLM in the same way you could augment your gym experience with a forkli…
Do they? I would assume that the overwhelming majority of people would be very happy to be able to get 50% of the results for twice the membership cost if they could avoid going.
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You mean to future proof the code so requirements changes are easy to implement? Yeah, I've seen lots of code like that (some of it written by myself). Usually the envisioned future never materializes unfortunately.
I mean given that you've had this problem repeatedly, I'd call it "past-proofing", but I suppose you know your codebase better than I do.
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Why do people enjoy going to the gym? Those weights have already been lifted a thousand times. I enjoy writing code because of the satisfaction that comes from solving a problem, from being able to create a working thing out of my own head, and to hopefully see myself getting better at programming. I could augment my programming abilities with an LLM in the same way you could augment your gym experience with a forkli…
> Why do people enjoy going to the gym? Do they? I would assume that the overwhelming majority of people would be very happy to be able to get 50% of the results for twice the membership cost if they could avoid going.
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OK. Be honest. If you had to write an argument parser once a week, would you enjoy it? Or extracting input from a config file? Or setting up a logger?
Complex argument parsing is something that I'd only generally be doing in python, which is handled by the argparse library. If I was doing it in another language, I'd google if there was a library for it, otherwise write it once and then copy it to use in other projects. Same with loggers. Depends on how I'm extracting input from a config file, what kind of config file, etc. One of my favourite things to do in progra…
Yes, I'm referring to argparse. If you had to write a new script every few days, each using argparse, would you enjoy it?
argparse was awesome the first few times I used it. After that, it just sucks. I have to look up the docs each time, particularly because I'm fussy about how well the parsing should work.
> otherwise write it once and then copy it to use in other projects. Same with loggers.
That was me, pre-LLM. And you know what, the first time I wrote a (throwaway) script with an LLM, and told it to add logging, I was sold. It's way nicer than copying. Particularly with argument parsing, even when you copy, it's often that you need to customize behavior. So copying just gets me a loose template. I still need to modify the parsing code.
More to the point, asking an LLM to do it is much less friction than copying. Even a simple task like "Let's find a previous script where I always do this" seems silly now. Why should I? The LLM will do it right over 95% of the time (I've actually never had it fail for logging/argument parsing).
It is just awesome having great logging and argument parsing for everything I write. Even scripts I'll use only once.
> Depends on how I'm extracting input from a config file, what kind of config file, etc. One of my favourite things to do in programming is parsing file formats I'm not familiar with, especially in a white-box situation.
JSON, YAML, INI files. All have libraries. Yet for me it's still a chore to use them. With an LLM, I paste in a sample JSON file, and say "Write code to extract this value".
Getting to your gym analogy: There are exercises people enjoy and those they don't. I don't know anyone who regularly goes to the gym and enjoys every exercise under the sun. One of the pearls of wisdom for working out is "Find an exercise regimen you enjoy."
That's a luxury they have. In the gym. What about physical activity that's part of real life? I don't know a single guy who goes to the gym and likes changing fence posts (which is physically taxing). Most do it once, and if they can afford it, just pay someone else to do it thereafter.
And so it is with programming. The beauty with LLMs is it lets me focus on writing code that is fun for me. I can delegate the boring stuff to it.
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The downside for formulaic code kinda makes the whole thing useless from my perspective, I can't imagining a case where that works. Maybe a good case, that i've used a lot, is using "spreadsheet inputs" and teaching the LLM to produce test cases/code based on the spreadsheet data (that I received from elsewhere). The data doesn't change and the tests won't change either so the LLM definitely helps, but this isn't cod…
There is a lot of formulaic code that llms get right 90% of the time that are impossible to build macros for. One example that I've had to deal with is language bridge code for an embedded scripting language. Every function I want available in the scripting environment requires what is essentially a boiler plate function to be written and I had to write a lot of them.
Maybe it's because I only code for my own tools, but I still don't understand the benefit of relying on someone/something else to write your code and then reading it, understand it, fixing it, etc. Although asking an LLM to extract and find the thing I'm looking for in an API Doc is super useful and time saving. To me, it's not even about how good these LLMs get in the future. I just don't like reading other people's…
At a certain point you won’t have to read and understand every line of code it writes, you can trust that a “module” you ask it to build works exactly like you’d think it would, with a clearly defined interface to the rest of your handwritten code.
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Don’t agree with the assessment. At this point most of what I find LLM taking over is all the repetitive crud like implementations. I am still doing what I consider the fun parts, architecting the project and solving what are still the hard parts for the LLM, the non crud parts. This could be gone in a year and maybe I become a glorified product manager but enjoying it for the time being l, I can focus on the real th…
If you keep asking an LLM to generate the same repetitive implementations, why not just have a basic project already set up that you can modify as needed?
Most boilerplate I write has a template that I can copy and paste then run a couple of "find and replace" on and get going right away
This is not a substantial blocker or time investment that an AI can save me imo
Maybe it's because I only code for my own tools, but I still don't understand the benefit of relying on someone/something else to write your code and then reading it, understand it, fixing it, etc. Although asking an LLM to extract and find the thing I'm looking for in an API Doc is super useful and time saving. To me, it's not even about how good these LLMs get in the future. I just don't like reading other people's…
Think of it like being a cook in a restaurant. The order comes in. The cook plans the steps to complete the task of preparing all the elements for a dish. The cook sears the steak and puts it in the broiler. The cook doesn't stop and wait for the steak to finish before continuing. Rather the cook works on other problems and tasks before returning to observe the steak. If the steak isn't finished the cook will return it to the broiler for more cooking. Otherwise the cook will finish the process of plating the steak with sides and garnishes.
The LLM is like the oven, a tool. Maybe grating cheese with a food processor is a better analogy. You could grate the cheese by hand or put the cheese into the food processor port in order to clean up, grab other items from the refrigerator, plan the steps for the next food item to prepare. This is the better analogy because grating cheese could be done by hand and maybe does have a better quality but if it is going into a sauce the grain quality doesn't matter so several minutes are saved by using a food processor which frees up the cook's time while working.
Professional cooks multitask using tools in parallel. Maybe coding will move away from being a linear task writing one line of code at a time.
Maybe it's because I only code for my own tools, but I still don't understand the benefit of relying on someone/something else to write your code and then reading it, understand it, fixing it, etc. Although asking an LLM to extract and find the thing I'm looking for in an API Doc is super useful and time saving. To me, it's not even about how good these LLMs get in the future. I just don't like reading other people's…