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How I program with agents

crawshaw.io

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Re: How I program with agents

#21

Post by voidUpdate »

qsort wrote: post #14
voidUpdate wrote: post #4

I wonder how many people that use agents actually like "programming", as in coming up with a solution to the problem and then being able to express that in code. It seems like a lot of the work that the agents are doing is removing that and instead making you have to explain what you want in natural language and hope the LLM doesn't introduce bugs

I have to flip the question, what is it that people like about it? I certainly don't enjoy writing code for problems that have already been solved a thousand times. We reach for a dictionary, we don't write a hash table from scratch every time, that's only fun the first time you do it. If I could go "give me a working compiler for this language" or "solve this problem using a depth-first search" I wouldn't enjoy prog…

Why do people enjoy going to the gym? Those weights have already been lifted a thousand times.

I enjoy writing code because of the satisfaction that comes from solving a problem, from being able to create a working thing out of my own head, and to hopefully see myself getting better at programming. I could augment my programming abilities with an LLM in the same way you could augment your gym experience with a forklift. I like to do it because I'm doing it. If I could go "give me a working compiler for this language", I wouldn't enjoy it anymore, because I've not gained anything from it. Obviously I don't re-implement a dictionary every time I need one, because its part of the "standard library" of basically everything I code in. And if it isn't, part of the fun is the challenge of either working out another way to do it, or reimplementing it.

Re: How I program with agents

#22

Post by mlinhares »

vmg12 wrote: post #13
zOneLetter wrote: post #7

Maybe it's because I only code for my own tools, but I still don't understand the benefit of relying on someone/something else to write your code and then reading it, understand it, fixing it, etc. Although asking an LLM to extract and find the thing I'm looking for in an API Doc is super useful and time saving. To me, it's not even about how good these LLMs get in the future. I just don't like reading other people's…

Here are the cases where it helps me (I promise this isn't ai generated even though im using a list...) - Formulaic code. It basically obviates the need for macros / code gen. The downside is that they are slower and you can't just update the macro and re-generate. The upside is it works for code that is slightly formulaic but has some slight differences across implementations that make macros impossible to use. - Us…

The downside for formulaic code kinda makes the whole thing useless from my perspective, I can't imagining a case where that works.

Maybe a good case, that i've used a lot, is using "spreadsheet inputs" and teaching the LLM to produce test cases/code based on the spreadsheet data (that I received from elsewhere). The data doesn't change and the tests won't change either so the LLM definitely helps, but this isn't code i'll ever touch again.

Re: How I program with agents

#23

Post by infecto »

voidUpdate wrote: post #4

I wonder how many people that use agents actually like "programming", as in coming up with a solution to the problem and then being able to express that in code. It seems like a lot of the work that the agents are doing is removing that and instead making you have to explain what you want in natural language and hope the LLM doesn't introduce bugs

Don’t agree with the assessment. At this point most of what I find LLM taking over is all the repetitive crud like implementations. I am still doing what I consider the fun parts, architecting the project and solving what are still the hard parts for the LLM, the non crud parts. This could be gone in a year and maybe I become a glorified product manager but enjoying it for the time being l, I can focus on the real thought problems and get help lifting the crud or repetitive patterns.

Re: How I program with agents

#24

Post by voidUpdate »

infecto wrote: post #23
voidUpdate wrote: post #4

I wonder how many people that use agents actually like "programming", as in coming up with a solution to the problem and then being able to express that in code. It seems like a lot of the work that the agents are doing is removing that and instead making you have to explain what you want in natural language and hope the LLM doesn't introduce bugs

Don’t agree with the assessment. At this point most of what I find LLM taking over is all the repetitive crud like implementations. I am still doing what I consider the fun parts, architecting the project and solving what are still the hard parts for the LLM, the non crud parts. This could be gone in a year and maybe I become a glorified product manager but enjoying it for the time being l, I can focus on the real th…

If you keep asking an LLM to generate the same repetitive implementations, why not just have a basic project already set up that you can modify as needed?

Re: How I program with agents

#25

Post by infecto »

voidUpdate wrote: post #21
qsort wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to flip the question, what is it that people like about it? I certainly don't enjoy writing code for problems that have already been solved a thousand times. We reach for a dictionary, we don't write a hash table from scratch every time, that's only fun the first time you do it. If I could go "give me a working compiler for this language" or "solve this problem using a depth-first search" I wouldn't enjoy prog…

Why do people enjoy going to the gym? Those weights have already been lifted a thousand times. I enjoy writing code because of the satisfaction that comes from solving a problem, from being able to create a working thing out of my own head, and to hopefully see myself getting better at programming. I could augment my programming abilities with an LLM in the same way you could augment your gym experience with a forkli…

Different strokes for different folks. I have written crud apps and other simple implementations thousands of times it feels like. My satisfaction is derived from building something useful not just the sale of building.

Re: How I program with agents

#26

Post by almostdeadguy »

> Whether this understanding of engineering, which is correct for some projects, is correct for engineering as a whole is questionable. Very few programs ever reach the point that they are heavily used and long-lived. Almost everything has few users, or is short-lived, or both. Let’s not extrapolate from the experiences of engineers who only take jobs maintaining large existing products to the entire industry.

I see this kind of retort more and more and I'm increasingly puzzled by it. What is the sector of software engineering where we don't care if the thing you create works or that it may do something harmful? This feels like an incoherent generalization of startup logic about creating quick/throwaway code to release early. Building something that doesn't work or building it without caring about the extent to which it might harm our users is not something engineers (or users) want. I don't see any scenario in which we'd not want to carefully scrutinize software created by an agent.

Re: How I program with agents

#27

Post by throwawayscrapd »

divan wrote: post #15
zOneLetter wrote: post #7

Maybe it's because I only code for my own tools, but I still don't understand the benefit of relying on someone/something else to write your code and then reading it, understand it, fixing it, etc. Although asking an LLM to extract and find the thing I'm looking for in an API Doc is super useful and time saving. To me, it's not even about how good these LLMs get in the future. I just don't like reading other people's…

On one codebase I work with, there are often tasks that involve changing multiple files in a relatively predictable way. Like there is little creativity/challenge, but a lot of typing in multiple parts/files. Tasks like these used to take 3-4 hours complete before just because I had to physically open all these files, find right places to modify, type the code etc. With AI agent I just describe the task, and it does…

Did you ever consider refactoring the code so that you don't have to do shotgun surgery every time you make this kind of change?

Re: How I program with agents

#28

Post by vmg12 »

mlinhares wrote: post #22
vmg12 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the cases where it helps me (I promise this isn't ai generated even though im using a list...) - Formulaic code. It basically obviates the need for macros / code gen. The downside is that they are slower and you can't just update the macro and re-generate. The upside is it works for code that is slightly formulaic but has some slight differences across implementations that make macros impossible to use. - Us…

The downside for formulaic code kinda makes the whole thing useless from my perspective, I can't imagining a case where that works. Maybe a good case, that i've used a lot, is using "spreadsheet inputs" and teaching the LLM to produce test cases/code based on the spreadsheet data (that I received from elsewhere). The data doesn't change and the tests won't change either so the LLM definitely helps, but this isn't cod…

There is a lot of formulaic code that llms get right 90% of the time that are impossible to build macros for. One example that I've had to deal with is language bridge code for an embedded scripting language. Every function I want available in the scripting environment requires what is essentially a boiler plate function to be written and I had to write a lot of them.

Re: How I program with agents

#29

Post by qsort »

voidUpdate wrote: post #21
qsort wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to flip the question, what is it that people like about it? I certainly don't enjoy writing code for problems that have already been solved a thousand times. We reach for a dictionary, we don't write a hash table from scratch every time, that's only fun the first time you do it. If I could go "give me a working compiler for this language" or "solve this problem using a depth-first search" I wouldn't enjoy prog…

Why do people enjoy going to the gym? Those weights have already been lifted a thousand times. I enjoy writing code because of the satisfaction that comes from solving a problem, from being able to create a working thing out of my own head, and to hopefully see myself getting better at programming. I could augment my programming abilities with an LLM in the same way you could augment your gym experience with a forkli…

We are talking past each other here.

Once I solved an Advent of Code problem, I felt like the problem wasn't general enough, so I solved the more general version as well. I like programming to the point of doing imaginary homework, then writing myself some extra credit and doing that as well. Way too much for my own good.

The point is that solving a new problem is interesting. Solving a problem you already know exactly how to solve isn't interesting and isn't even intellectual exercise. I would gain approximately zero from writing a new hash table from scratch whenever I needed one instead of just using std::map.

Problem solving absolutely is a muscle and it's use it or lose it, but you don't train problem solving by solving the same problem over and over.

Re: How I program with agents

#30

Post by the_af »

> A related, but tricker topic is one of the quieter arguments passed around for harder-to-use programming tools (for example, programming languages like C with few amenities and convoluted build systems) is that these tools act as gatekeepers on a project, stopping low-quality mediocre development. You cannot have sprawling dependencies on a project if no-one can figure out how to add a dependency. If you believe in an argument like this, then anything that makes it easier to write code: type safety, garbage collection, package management, and LLM-driven agents make things worse. If your goal is to decelerate and avoid change then an agent is not useful.

This is the first time I heard of this argument. It seems vaguely related to the argument that "a developer who understands some hard system/proglang X can be trusted to also understand this other complex thing Y", but I never heard "we don't want to make something easy to understand because then it would stop acting as gatekeeping".

Seems like a strawman to me...

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