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"Localhost tracking" explained. It could cost Meta €32B

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Re: "Localhost tracking" explained. It could cost Meta €32B

#61

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

brookst wrote: post #41
ryukoposting wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.2B is less than 1% of Meta's revenue in FY2024. Maximum fines for infractions like these should exist on a sliding scale, as some percentage of prior revenue.

Probably best indexed to profit rather than revenue. 10% of revenue would be a one quarter’s profit for meta, but more than a year’s profit for Amazon and about 9 years of profit for Otto. Higher margins / profits should mean higher fines.

The laws specify revenue, to avoid transfer pricing removing all fineable profits. Live by the sword, die by the sword I guess.

Re: "Localhost tracking" explained. It could cost Meta €32B

#62

Post by DrScientist »

genocidicbunny wrote: post #53
Waterluvian wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. My feeling is that corporate officers should bear the burden that the corporation as a person currently bears. I can only imagine how much better things would be in past experiences if the C-levels felt a personal need to actually know how the sausage is being made.

I can't fully agree because the way I see it, that is in a way scapegoating the company executives. Are they responsible? Probably, yes, they set the direction of the company and give the orders at the highest level. But we the engineers and designers are the ones actually implementing what is probably a fairly nebulous order at the highest levels into something concrete. They deign that there should be evil created,…

I'd agree at a personal/moral level there is equal responsibility. However that doesn't recognise both the power and risk/reward imbalance here.

If you, as an employee did this - maybe you'd add a few dollars to your stock options over time. If your Zuck - that's potentially billions.

And in terms of downside - if you are Zuck and stop it in the company - there is no comeback - if you are an engineer blowing the whistle - you may find it hard to work in the industry ever again - and only one of those two actually needs to work.

Re: "Localhost tracking" explained. It could cost Meta €32B

#63

Post by DrScientist »

drweevil wrote: post #60
DrScientist wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies have no soul. They are, by design, just chasing revenue. Everything else is just a risk to be factored. I disagree - companies are set up/run by people, and those people define company culture/ company culture reflects those people. Not all companies, even big ones, are the same. To make that concrete - if Mark Zuckerberg found out about the above activity and was appalled and sacked everyone involved tha…

No, companies indeed have no soul. This is all about perverse incentives. While companies are setup/run by people, the (publicly owned) company as a whole only has one incentive: profit. If any person on the inside stands against that, they won't stand long. Investors, executives whose pay depend on it, etc. will make sure of that. So the problem here is to transform a moral incentive into a financial one. A strong o…

> If any person on the inside stands against that, they won't stand long. Investors, executives whose pay depend on it, etc. will make sure of that.

Not in my experience. Even investors are people too ( or the investment companies reflect the values of the people running it ).

Sure there are people who believe the only role of a company is to make money ( eg Milton Friedman ). However that's an opinion - not a fact.

Other people have different views and run their companies, or place their investments, accordingly.

Even if you believe all that matters is the bottom line - you still might take the view that doing reputational damaging stuff like this is bad for the long term bottom line.

That's not to say that I don't agree with you that companies will face pressure over the bottom line, and outside regulation is absolutely important. However you should realise that part of running a large public company is aligning your investors to how you want to operate. If you want to take a long term ethical stand then you attract those type of investors and try and get rid of the short term money men.

Like, attracts like.

Re: "Localhost tracking" explained. It could cost Meta €32B

#64

Post by philistine »

frenchmajesty wrote: post #15

Very impressive but not surprising coming from Meta. They have an history of doing this kind of things. Back in the early 2010s, they found a way to spy on HTTPS traffic on the iOS App Store to monitor which apps were getting popular. That's what allowed them to know WhatsApp and Instagram were good acquisition targets. At this point, I think the race for Zuckerberg is, can Meta survive long enough for the next platf…

I disagree that they're on track to make it. Their platform, Quest VR, has sold around 20 million headsets. Any company would be over the moon but we're talking Facebook here. They need way more users than that, which can only be achieved with explosive growth.

So maybe they're growing fast? Nope. Their better selling product, at 14 million of those 20 million is the Quest 2 which has been discontinued for 9 months. Doesn't sound like explosive growth to me when your best selling product is not your current product.

Re: "Localhost tracking" explained. It could cost Meta €32B

#65

Post by WhyNotHugo »

throwawayffffas wrote: post #14

So I am seeing two issues here. 1. Android allows apps to open ports without permissions. And apps to communicate with each other without permissions. 2. The browsers allow random domains to access services on the localhost. Without notifying the user. We have seen vulnerabilities in the past accessing dev services running on localhost. Something should be done there.

I'd split that first list into two:

1a. Arbitrary apps can listen on ports without permissions.

1b. Arbitrary apps can access local ports without permissions.

I've recently been experimenting with running the browser (on my desktop) in a network namespace precisely because of these reasons. Random websites shouldn't be able to access services running on localhost.

Re: "Localhost tracking" explained. It could cost Meta €32B

#66

Post by wapeoifjaweofji »

genocidicbunny wrote: post #53
Waterluvian wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. My feeling is that corporate officers should bear the burden that the corporation as a person currently bears. I can only imagine how much better things would be in past experiences if the C-levels felt a personal need to actually know how the sausage is being made.

I can't fully agree because the way I see it, that is in a way scapegoating the company executives. Are they responsible? Probably, yes, they set the direction of the company and give the orders at the highest level. But we the engineers and designers are the ones actually implementing what is probably a fairly nebulous order at the highest levels into something concrete. They deign that there should be evil created,…

> I can't fully agree because the way I see it, that is in a way scapegoating the company executives.

Frankly, that's what the money's for.

Re: "Localhost tracking" explained. It could cost Meta €32B

#67

Post by benterix »

DrScientist wrote: post #25
Waterluvian wrote: post #5

Every story like this has me thinking about two things: 1. Companies have no soul. They are, by design, just chasing revenue. Everything else is just a risk to be factored. 2. There are real humans at these companies who choose to take part in the business and design and engineering, etc. I don’t think these humans have no soul (though some won’t), and I don’t think they’re stupid (though some are). I think it’s just…

> Companies have no soul. They are, by design, just chasing revenue. Everything else is just a risk to be factored. I disagree - companies are set up/run by people, and those people define company culture/ company culture reflects those people. Not all companies, even big ones, are the same. To make that concrete - if Mark Zuckerberg found out about the above activity and was appalled and sacked everyone involved tha…

> To make that concrete - if Mark Zuckerberg found out about the above activity and was appalled and sacked everyone involved that would send out a very strong signal.

We know from another case that the opposite culture is true: when told to break the law and use copyrighted material, the engineers feel uneasy - they were not stupid and understood what they were going to do, and for a similar-in-nature-but-a-few-orders-of-magnitude-smaller things Aaron Schwarz was facing prison time. So they expressed their concerns upwards but they were told to proceed anyway.

Re: "Localhost tracking" explained. It could cost Meta €32B

#69

Post by teleforce »

"If you're not paying for the product, you are the product" - anonymous.

Why is this very news is not in the HN front page for considerable amount of time is beyond me.

It has the right recipe for top HN post namely users deception, sandbox bypass, privacy or lack thereof, web browser, Meta, etc.

Re: "Localhost tracking" explained. It could cost Meta €32B

#70

Post by fzuck686 »

birn559 wrote: post #33
ryukoposting wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.2B is less than 1% of Meta's revenue in FY2024. Maximum fines for infractions like these should exist on a sliding scale, as some percentage of prior revenue.

Something that you can sensibly express as a fraction of the revenue of Meta is significant though. It must be low enough that Meta never seriously considers to pull out of Europe.

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