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Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

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Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#181

Post by komali2 »

alex43578 wrote: post #48
pjc50 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what methods are you suggesting we use to keep our immigrant population tracked and controlled? You can't track and control only immigrants. Any such system would include tracking and controls of citizens, simply in order to sort them into the "not immigrant" category. Hence all the "papers please". (Not to mention the false positive problem!)

Surprise, you’re already tracked in a dozen harmless ways that enable modern life: drivers license, Social Security number, birth certificate, etc; even before you get into quasi-public records like credit reporting, bank accounts, and insurance. Acting like showing ID to an immigration official is some unprecedented intrusion is absurd. Fly domestically, shop at Costco, or buy a 6 pack of beer and you’ll end up show…

Genuine question: Are you a communist, or perhaps a member of a former communist state? What you're discussing is how Americans perceive the Soviets or the Maoists, it doesn't really align with American values as I grew up understanding them.

"Show me your papers" is not something I think most Americans think is acceptable to be asked of them.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#182

Post by komali2 »

ericmay wrote: post #159
motorest wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (...) but those who believed at the time that vaccine mandates were draconian government overreach literally believed they were freedom fighters just as much (...) This is simply not true. At face value that's the literal claims the typical covid karens blurbed, but the common thread was always cynicism towards others in attempts to antagonize and outright assault anyone who didn't complied with their demands. Thos…

"Not true" according to who? They sure seemed serious to me. I think you are having difficulty separating your personal opinion of those folks with assessing what they believed and how they acted. You can make the same argument about the rioters in Los Angelas today [1]. "Those who value XYZ wouldn't take ABC action" https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/5340553-los-angeles...

The point was specifically about people who it's being argued are pro- or anti-authoritarian. In this case, people opposed to mask wearing are being argued as "anti-authoritarian" perhaps in an attempt to accuse those of us that support the LA resistance against ICE as hypocritical.

It was argued that those opposed to mask wearing aren't anti-authoritarian because they went out of their way to attack people wearing masks, e.g. by trying to rip masks off their face (this happened to me personally twice in HEB lol).

Your point is that this isn't valid because that doesn't indicate their anti authoritarianism-ness or not, and your example is that at the LA protests, looting happened.

However, this doesn't work, because the incidence of looting in LA has nothing to do with the overall movement of ejecting ICE. There's crowds and chaos, and some people can thus take advantage of this to loot. It's not ideologically connected at all. Whereas in the mask example, it's a direct ideological and acting thread - the anti-maskers are personally attacking people for wearing masks.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#183

Post by komali2 »

anonfordays wrote: post #117
hiddencost wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE's actions are wildly illegal. None of this false equivalence nonsense.

>ICE's actions are wildly illegal. No they're not. Deporting illegal aliens is not "wildly" illegal.

This is a bad faith argument. ICE is not "deporting illegal aliens," they're throwing tear gas canisters into busy restaurants and locking people in without cause while they check their papers.

The America I grew up in would call that "commie shit," I'm not sure if you grew up in the same America as me or what but I'm pretty sure that I have a better representative understanding of American values to know that officers throwing a tear gas canister into the restaurant I'm eating at and then asking me to "show my papers" is exactly the kind of Soviet-ass behavior that it's my American duty to protest.

I don't care about any justification, if what it requires to keep undocumented migrants out of restaurant kitchens is that cops get to kick down doors and ask people randomly for papers, I'll take the America with the 4th and 5th amendments and the undocumented migrants in the kitchen before I take the communist alternative you're offering.

Liberty or death, and in this case it's not even death, it's cheap good food.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#184

Post by komali2 »

roenxi wrote: post #66
pjc50 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You never see the employers of "illegal" labour getting teargassed and dragged away to foreign prisons without trial, do you?

This is because employers are generally compliant with law enforcement requests. I don't think you're making a point there - if the employers are breaking laws they will also get punished and if they resist persistently then there will be violence.

This is a common misconception. Actually, the greatest loss of money to theft is because of wage theft committed by employers.

https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-fro...

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#185

Post by sa46 »

sys32768 wrote: post #139

American descendants of loyalists often hide their roots. I know this because my grandmother told me a few years before she passed that her father, a mason and devoted patriot, once confided a scandalous family secret: there are loyalists in our family tree. Sadly, grandma's research never got her to the root of this claim despite much research, but thanks to online resources and some helpful Canadians, I discovered…

Other fun fact, Army Rangers trace their lineage to Rogers’ Rangers. Rogers fought for the crown in the Revolutionary War.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers'_Rangers

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#186

Post by roenxi »

SantalBlush wrote: post #174
like_any_other wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you trying to say? That it's not anti-authoritarian if you don't get tear-gassed?

The discussion was explicitly about American anti-authoritarianism, so countering with evidence of perceived government overreach in Australia is a laughably bad approach--no special pleading is required. It's a complete shifting of the goalposts, suggesting the person is really grasping at straws to make some kind of point.

I live in Australia, I don't think government overreach in Australia is a laughing matter; beyond maybe a few dark jokes. We're people too.

Old mate was asking a stupid question - people care enough about the COVID restrictions to protest in every country they were bought in. Exactly how heated the protests get isn't really a factor and how unreasonable the police response gets isn't really a factor either. What is jeffbee's complaint supposed to be - COVID protesters in the US behaved too well for his liking? People only show they care about law and principle when they are physically threatening police? Maybe he wanted them to act like monkeys to show they were serious? Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer. The literal one is yes. People were tear gassed. Move on to the next question.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#187

Post by roenxi »

komali2 wrote: post #184
roenxi wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is because employers are generally compliant with law enforcement requests. I don't think you're making a point there - if the employers are breaking laws they will also get punished and if they resist persistently then there will be violence.

This is a common misconception. Actually, the greatest loss of money to theft is because of wage theft committed by employers. https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-fro...

He's talking about tear gassings and people being dragged away though. Have employers even formed a mob to assert their right to commit wage theft? That seems like it'd be a wildly rare event but a prerequisite to a tear gassing. I assume it must have happened at least once but I can't recall an example. Dragging them to a foreign prison isn't really a productive way to deal with wage theft. They get dragged to local prisons if they commit crimes though.

If the point is that employers get a trial and that is unfair then there might be something there, but the point isn't being expressed very clearly.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#188

Post by giardini »

MentatOnMelange wrote: post #131
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democratic voters want those things. It's not at all obvious the party establishment does. The tell is that when Republicans push through their policies, Democratic opposition is weak and ineffectual. Instead of ferocious opposition the Dems send one of their famous sternly worded letters. Since at least 2000 the party establishment has absolutely refused to do any of the things it could do to change this - including…

In my experience this is dead on. People have short attention spans but this has been happning the whole 21st century. In 2008 Obama won the primary despite the best efforts of leadership to nominate clinton. They even scrambled the "super delegates" (delegates who vote for the candidate chosen by senior leadership) hoping that even if Obama won more delegates, they could override the voters choice. Of course, they f…

>"Obama became the only 21st century president to win the poplar vote twice"Amazing! And who won the pine, elm, and oak vote? [it's "popular" not "poplar"; A poplar is a effing tree!)

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#189

Post by giardini »

Freedom2 wrote: post #156
redeux wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of similarities when it comes to their tendency towards Corporatocracy and military spending, but it largely ends there. When it comes to taxes, fiscal priorities, rights for individuals, foreign policy, crime and punishment, and of course social issues they are very different and in most cases take the opposite approach. For example, Republicans want lower taxes for the wealthy while Democrats want l…

> Republicans want to restrict individuals rights This is a curious comment. HackerNews has always told me it was in fact the opposite - it's easy enough to source quotes from over the years. Could this forum have been wrong all this time?

The proper answer is that both Republicans and Democrats seek to restrict the others' individual and group rights, whenever possible.

Freedom2 says>"Could this forum have been wrong all this time?"Surely you jest, Sir! My hat is off to you!8-))

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#190

Post by alex43578 »

komali2 wrote: post #181
alex43578 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprise, you’re already tracked in a dozen harmless ways that enable modern life: drivers license, Social Security number, birth certificate, etc; even before you get into quasi-public records like credit reporting, bank accounts, and insurance. Acting like showing ID to an immigration official is some unprecedented intrusion is absurd. Fly domestically, shop at Costco, or buy a 6 pack of beer and you’ll end up show…

Genuine question: Are you a communist, or perhaps a member of a former communist state? What you're discussing is how Americans perceive the Soviets or the Maoists, it doesn't really align with American values as I grew up understanding them. "Show me your papers" is not something I think most Americans think is acceptable to be asked of them.

Excepting “sovereign citizens”, most Americans comply when asked to show ID on a traffic stop, their passport at customs, a drivers license when renting a car, or even ID when swiping a credit card at Walmart.

Do you think all Americans are just running around bartering for corn with bullets? Showing ID when engaging in modern society has become common - except when voting, of course, oddly enough :P

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