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Administering immunotherapy in the morning seems to matter. Why?

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Re: Administering immunotherapy in the morning seems to matter. Why?

#181
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree n=1 generally isn’t enough, but something like this is easily something you ask for volunteers for as an experiment. There’s 0 risk, you’re taking the same drug. The only reason a given time is selected anyway is for administrative ease not because there’s medical requirements.

Its not easy to ask if it messes with staff scheduling.

I posted this above, but for clarity:

This was Sloan-Kettering.

They gave morning infusions because it was convenient for them.

To get my father the evening infusion we had to hire private duty nurses to come to his apartment.

Re: Administering immunotherapy in the morning seems to matter. Why?

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if your study clearly hurts people? What happens if your study clearly helps people? You find out in the first few weeks, what do you do? How do you ensure you collected enough of a sample of a general population to make your study representative? How do you ensure your patients properly consented to the study (past shameful human experiments aside, you likely need many institutions participating, so you…

I think once again - when the process becomes the metric it’s insane. What time things are being administered is already random and not regulated or organized. “What if it hurts” isn’t relevant for something like this because the reasoning is that the baseline is that “when” doesn’t matter, you’re still giving the same dosage. “What if it clearly helps?” What if. Then you publish a paper or give a talk at a conferenc…

You are approaching things from software development perspective of "what's the worst that can happen? I rollback". In the topic discussed, you cannot rollback. While you might have a reasonable suspicion that changing the time will improve some outcomes in most, you cannot be sure that it won't greatly reduce positive outcomes in many. The IRB is often in place not to stop positive outcomes, but to reduce negative ones.

Re: Administering immunotherapy in the morning seems to matter. Why?

#183
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Evidence-based" is a really problematic term when it is used to protect bureaucracies and medical managerialism, rather than actually interact with scientific processes in an ethical way. Their anecdote is actually a good example of why evidence-based logic is not the end-all.

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Re: Administering immunotherapy in the morning seems to matter. Why?

#184
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, as any ethicist worth his salt would argue: we don’t want anyone saving lives without proper approval.

What a intellectually lazy response. No, it would be more accurate to say "any ethicist worth his salt would argue: don't make changes that could be harmful based on a hunch"

I think it was a bit tongue in cheek, not so much lazy. Also, considering the kinds of gatekeeping and forced "concerns" I've seen some ethicists push forth just for the sake of showcasing their fixations instead of really looking at costs and benefits, I don't think it's far off the mark on reality to argue that medical ethics is worth considerable scrutiny too, and shouldn't hid behind a mantle of being above criticism.

Re: Administering immunotherapy in the morning seems to matter. Why?

#185
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since they clearly could alter the schedule, offering a limited number of later slots and comparing results would seem like the prudent response. There's a difference between a doctor entertaining a medically-irrelevant suggestion from a patient (or patient's family), vs. assuming that the subsequent improvement was related to it, and then making that decision for some other patients (or suggesting it to them). The…

They are already making treatment choices without good reason when they set or change the schedules. They could already have made it worse with prior scheduling decisions, without having any idea. Intentionally choosing to ignore a possibly harmful effect of the current lack of scheduling rules seems to me as blatantly unethical or worse as taking reasonable steps within what is already permitted to try to address a…

> They are already making treatment choices without good reason when they set or change the schedules.

In a sense, yes - but there's a difference between following established protocol or understanding, vs. changing it; the difference comes from operating under extreme uncertainty. It's a version of "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" - especially if you're not able to fully commit to identifying the problem, devising a fix, and verifying it's actually doing what you expect for reasons you expected.

> They could already have made it worse with prior scheduling decisions, without having any idea.

Or they could've made it better without having any idea. Point is, they had no idea either way.

> If concerned about making the schedule change for them: Provide the option. Add appropriate warnings if you like.

Even providing an option is already biasing the patient's decisions. Especially in matters of health, people will happily ignore all the warnings you can give (especially if they're mostly philosophical points about ethics or epistemology) and grasp for anything that could help. They're not going to be making a calm and objective choice. Doctors are fully aware of this, and with that awareness, presenting an option is really making a decision for yourself, but dumping any potential fallout on a patient. It's the 21st century, we know what informed choice is, and that wouldn't be it.

> But also consider that any grieving families that finds out after the fact that there might be a known benefit to changing the scheduling would be equally hard to convince that you've not acted unethically and done harm.

For better or worse, that's a big part of what evidence-based medicine is - a shield to protect you in situations like these. It lets you say that "might" wasn't enough - that the benefit wasn't actually "known", but merely anecdotally reported; that the benefit could be real, or could be coincidence, and there could be drawbacks too, unknown or under-reported (so the family didn't stumble on anecdotes of failure like did on anecdotes of success). It lets you say that there is an actual framework for evaluating what's ethical under uncertainty, and it deemed the risk too high. Most importantly, it lets you say all that, and have the entire medical community back you on this. Whether or not your conscience agrees, at the very least the will judge you as acting ethically and in best interest of the patient.

EBM and standard protocols are far from perfect - but they have solid ethical and epistemological grounding, and achieve the goal of minimizing harm to the extent possible under extreme uncertainty the medical field operates in.

Re: Administering immunotherapy in the morning seems to matter. Why?

#186
post #150
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a younger person what are the best habits to get into to maintain optimal long term immune health?

Sleep, exercise, a balanced diet of mostly whole fruits and vegetables, and a moderate amount of whole grains, legumes and fresh meat/fish/eggs if you're not choosing a vegan lifestyle. Avoid ultra processed foods, cured meats, alcohol and other recreational drugs. Make sure you get enough vitamin D, which can be hard with certain diets if you're not supplementing, or getting the right amount of sunlight(latitude and…

Plus, fix your gut.

Re: Administering immunotherapy in the morning seems to matter. Why?

#188
post #6

I'm doing CedarCure. You're required to not exercise or bath/shower for 2h after taking, which is fairly difficult in the morning, so I asked the doc if I could do it in the evening instead (despite explicit instructions to do it in the morning). The doc said it was fine, confirmed by the pharmacist. I should know better by now than to trust doctors to act based on research and not gut feeling, but I hope this doesn'…

I think you are misunderstanding a couple of things. The label for Cedarcure doesn’t have timed dosing, just says take it during the day. Furthermore this research article would actually indicate it’s better to take it in the afternoon for your particular drug, if there really is any connection. Which is still a crazy connection to make because you are complaining about a specific immumotherapy regimen finding not being applied to an allergy-style medication. Why not apply this logic to every drug that interacts with the immune system (which is all of them)? Furthermore as other comments pointed out, you’re mad your doctor didn’t know about a brand-new study that didn’t exist when they made a recommendation?

Doctor’s have a wide discretion and often get things wrong. But in your case, that’s not what happened. If anything your doctor actually got it right either by chance or intuition.

Re: Administering immunotherapy in the morning seems to matter. Why?

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Barry James Marshall

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Since no one wants to explain and you I just got downvoted, Barry James Marshall is ironically an example of EBM and is HIMSELF an active proponent of EBM.

He had a biological hypothesis that the scientific community disagreed with and tested it on himself for a case study to get data. That case study was successful and then became a clinical trial. That trial was replicated and shown to work. He then won a Nobel prize for that work and the risk he took. This is an evidence-based process. EBM doesn’t mean you disregard a N=1, it means you expand N=1 into N=10, then N=100,… before you apply something to the general population. This is loosely how phase-1,2,3,4 trials work in the US.

Dismissing EBM because of Marshall is like dismissing all of math because someone disproved a popular conjecture like the local-to-global conjecture. Sure the community sentiment had it wrong, but the systematic logical approach of Math got it right. In Marshall’s case the community sentiment had it wrong, but the EBM approach eventually got it right. Half this thread doesn’t even know what they are arguing against.

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