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Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

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441–450 of 957 posts

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#441

For folks that don't know the background on this, here's a layperson summary: - A business is usually taxed on its profits: you deduct your revenue from the cost of producing that revenue, and the delta is what you are taxed on. - In software businesses, this usually means if you spend $1M in software development to develop a web app, and it makes $1.1M in that year, you'd get taxed on the $100K profits. - However, a…

While this does convey the idea, the premise is also biased. > even though it has a total of $100K in the bank after the actual expenses were paid. People running a business can perfectly understand the concept of liquidity. And yes, just because you transform money to something else, then it doesn't mean that you should not be taxed on it. The extreme example is a company that buys gold on the last trading day of th…

> The extreme example is a company that buys gold on the last trading day of the year - now there is no profit! On the first day they sell the gold again and does tax eviction.

In this example, it seems like you're assuming that the revenue from the sale of the gold would not be taxable, but I don't see why that should or would be the case.

ETA: also, gold is far, far more fungible than any particular software

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it applies to software engineers but under what definition of software engineer? This [1] is the only definition the code actually give. > (3) Software development > For purposes of this section, any amount paid or incurred in connection with the development of any software shall be treated as a research or experimental expenditure. 1. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/174 ----- Is a test or QA engineer c…

The answer to all these questions is yes, i don't see the point in trying to obfuscate this with artificial complexity. What about HR, etc who use excel documents? IF they are using it rather than developing it, no. If they put in 5 hours a week writing code, yes for those 5 hours. This isn't hard.

How is an HR person writing a script to do their HR work better considered an R&D expense?

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to all these questions is yes, i don't see the point in trying to obfuscate this with artificial complexity. What about HR, etc who use excel documents? IF they are using it rather than developing it, no. If they put in 5 hours a week writing code, yes for those 5 hours. This isn't hard.

So now every engineer has to record how many hours each day were spent doing "software development" vs. "software maintenance"/"overhead"/"etc..."?

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#446

Is lobbying for our interests how we become the bad guys? I dont want software development to become the oil and gas industry. More specifically, if software devs aren't creating capital assets, then what exactly is being bought during an acquisition? Don't we tell ourselves our work is building an asset that can be reused and sold. The operational aspect of our job still seems to be treated as opex. Our entire indus…

You might be amused to hear that the only exception for Section 174 is software developers working at oil and gas companies!

From the legislation:

“ Section 174(c)(2) provides that the required § 174 method does not apply to any expenditure paid or incurred for the purpose of ascertaining the existence, location, extent, or quality of any deposit of ore or other mineral (including oil and gas).”

Is there an explanation how software developers creating software for oil and gas companies are different than for any other industry?

Or can we assume that the oil and gas industry managed to (yet again!) have its lobbyists where it mattered?

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#447
post #354

The Small Software Business Alliance has been actively working on this issue since day one. https://ssballiance.org/about/engage/ And Michelle Hansen was an early organizer https://x.com/mjwhansen If you work at all in energy, the Clean Energy Business Network is also proactive in fighting for change. A couple of years ago they put me touch with Ron Wyden's staff. The Democrats are almost universally opposed to what…

[flagged]

You know not what you speak of. I am small developer without funding.

For every developer I hire I pay tax on 90% of their wages in year 1.

So, if I hire a 200k a year developer, I have an increased tax liability of 180k. That works out to paying about $75k ~ $85k. So my 200k developer becomes an 285k developer.

Now, eventually I could regain that cost, or I could do like I know of a few companies and commit tax fraud by not correctly reporting my expenses.

BTW even as a partner I am hit by this - to correctly file my taxes I have to report my retirement savings as development revenue and pay tax on what is supposed to be tax free.

Pretty cool.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#448

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

say I work for a company for 5 years as a software developer, at $200k/yr the entire time. is this how it works: year 1: company deducts $40k: 1/5 of the salary for year 1. year 2: company deducts $80k: 1/5 of the salary for year 2, and 1/5 of the salary of year 1. year 3: company deducts $120k: 1/5 of the salary for year 3, 1/5 of the salary for year 2, and 1/5 of the salary for year 1. year 4: company deducts $160k…

> what is the corporate tax rate?

21%

> It's not 100%, so you're deducting a fraction developer's salary from your income, right, you're not saving that much on your tax bill each year. you're paying tax on the income you used to pay the developer.

Which is a problem if you don’t have the money to pay the tax.

Let’s combine your and the parent’s examples: 1 principal engineer @ $300,000/year; 3 engineers @ $200,000/year = $900,000/year. $1,000,000 in sales.

year 1: Company makes $1,000,000 and pays $900,000 to engineers for a $100,000 cash profit; it deducts $180,000 from $1,000,000 for a $820,000 paper profit, and owes $172,200 in taxes. Since $172,000 > $100,000, it has a $72,000 cash loss for the year. There is not year 2.

Or maybe it raises enough capital to have a cash cushion. A similar thing happens in year 2: it makes $1,000,000 and pays $900,000 to the engineers for a $100,000 annual cash profit, deducts $360,000 from $1,000,000 for a $640,000 paper profit and owes $134,400 in taxes, still more than the cash profit. The cumulative cash losses are now $106,400.

Once again in year 3 it makes $1,000,000 and pays $900,000 to the engineers for a $100,000 annual cash profit, deducts $540,000 from $1,000,000 for a $460,000 paper profit and owes $96,600 in taxes. Hey, it doesn’t owe more than it made in taxes! On the other hand, its cumulative cash losses are now $103,000. Three years, three million in revenue, 2.7 million in expenses but it’s in the hole by $103,000, still more than its annual profit.

In year 4 it makes $1,000,000 and pays $900,000 to the engineers for a $100,000 annual cash profit, deducts $720,000 from $1,000,000 for a $280,000 paper profit and a $58,800 tax bill. It still has a cumulative $61,800 cash loss.

In year 5 it makes $1,000,000 and pays $900,000 for a $100,000 annual cash profit, deducts $900,000 from $1,000,000 for a $100,000 paper profit and a $21,000 tax bill. Good news, the company now has a cumulative cash gain! At the end of five years and $5,000,000 in sales the capital owners have made … $17,200. The engineers made $4,500,000 and the government made $483,000.

In year 6 it makes $1,000,000 and pays nothing (this is very unrealistic, because in the real world every product requires maintenance …) for a $1,000,000 cash profit, deducts $720,000 from $1,000,000 for a $280,000 paper profit and a $58,800 tax bill. People complain that it’s only paying a 5.88% tax rate, ignoring the years of amortised losses. But hey, after $6,000,000 in sales the owners finally have $958,400. They take it as a dividend and it gets taxed at the top marginal rate, so they pay an additional $354,608 in taxes.

In the real world, of course, sales may or may not cover salaries, sales may increase or decrease from year to year, markets may change and so forth.

> I don't care what the law says, pay enough that no one can say that you're a lamprey on society, please.

That’s an impossible target. Any random person can say, unreasonably, that someone else is a ‘lamprey on society.’

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#449
post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically it’s the same with any asset you pay someone to make. If you pay someone to make a chair, you don’t deduct the salary. Instead you create an asset valued at what you paid to build it, then depreciate it over time. The arguement for this is that it would be inconsistent to do otherwise. After all, why should buying a chair from someone else be different than paying an employee to do it? It’s worth noting…

If you pay an employee to make a chair, you 100% deduct their salary, immediately. The chair is only a capital expense if you buy it from a company that sells chairs. The company selling the chairs isn't forced to amortize the salaries of their carpenters, so implying that it's normal for companies to be forced to amortize the salaries of their software engineers is, in the most generous possible interpretation, a gr…

If you pay people to make 1000 chairs that are just sitting there, do you really think that you don’t have an asset on your books at all? This is called Inventory. It’s certainly an asset.

And an asset doesn’t come into existence out of nowhere. It comes into existence because you paid money for it. And the money you pay for it is indeed the persons salary.

Now sure, it’s possible to get away with not doing this, but it’s not correct by accounting standards to do so.

As for which standards, International Financial Reporting Standard (IFRS)

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#450
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is, that there is some asset generated by the devs (software, etc.). Same as a machine that you buy and that generates revenue over time (and loses value over time). So the work result (the software) of a dev generates revenue over time and the costs are spread over time as well.

I guess I'm preaching to the choir here, but a machine has re-sale value outside of what it produces, which is what actually makes it a "asset". This argument could be applied to any knowledge worker that makes a spreadsheet since you can sell the spreadsheet.

I'm not sure if I can follow your argument. A software dev usually works on something that is actually sellable (the spreadsheet software itself or a SaaS platform). If we take Facebook the platform as an example, for sure you could sell the software. Or a startup like Windsurf that gets bought because of the software they developed. So from my perspective devs actually create assets.

If there should be tax discounts to make it attractive to develop software is the political decision.

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