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Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

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Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#62
post #47

This is less on that specific topic and more general: While I enjoy the hacker news forums a great deal, I've no relationship with YC as an org. I am not sure that YC has any particular interest in things that might impact me as an individual contributor in an org as much as it impacts them. Understandably there's an everyone for themselves aspect here, but that makes these kinds of call to actions a bit hollow to me…

Sure, YC is a business. But HN has so many people building software that there's also a community interest here—otherwise I wouldn't have suggested this thread.

pg used to do this kind of thing on HN from time to time, especially on internet freedom issues, so this is a bit of return-to-roots for the site. SOPA is the one I remember but there were others.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#63
post #3

Thanks for working on this guys. The current tax code is fairly crazy: you could spend a few million in salaries, sell 200k of software in a year and possibly owe taxes on that. Even if the company would otherwise be shutting down. The traditional capital asset treatment applied to software leaves a lot to be desired. Some software is a capital asset, but much just isn’t. Or at least should be considered to depreciat…

I would be surprised if nearly all software companies wouldn't consider their code to be a valuable capital asset. For example, do you think your company would be okay with releasing commits/snapshots of their source code and design docs into the public domain once they hit 5 years old? Or do they currently depreciate too quickly ?

I don't think that framing really tells us much, because there could be many reasons not to release that code that don't indicate it's an asset, such as (A) worries it might have still-relevant security issues, (B) costs of scrubbing other information like employee PII, or (C) the code is too useless to be worth the effort.

If the goal is to measure retained value, I'd ask how much a competitor would pay to acquire your 5-year-old code (for direct use, not for hacking you) without feeling cheated afterwards.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#64
post #3

Thanks for working on this guys. The current tax code is fairly crazy: you could spend a few million in salaries, sell 200k of software in a year and possibly owe taxes on that. Even if the company would otherwise be shutting down. The traditional capital asset treatment applied to software leaves a lot to be desired. Some software is a capital asset, but much just isn’t. Or at least should be considered to depreciat…

I would be surprised if nearly all software companies wouldn't consider their code to be a valuable capital asset. For example, do you think your company would be okay with releasing commits/snapshots of their source code and design docs into the public domain once they hit 5 years old? Or do they currently depreciate too quickly ?

I think companies view it as a trade secret. Whether or not that particular app is making money, regardless of how old it is, they don't want to release the code.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#65
post #3

Thanks for working on this guys. The current tax code is fairly crazy: you could spend a few million in salaries, sell 200k of software in a year and possibly owe taxes on that. Even if the company would otherwise be shutting down. The traditional capital asset treatment applied to software leaves a lot to be desired. Some software is a capital asset, but much just isn’t. Or at least should be considered to depreciat…

I would be surprised if nearly all software companies wouldn't consider their code to be a valuable capital asset. For example, do you think your company would be okay with releasing commits/snapshots of their source code and design docs into the public domain once they hit 5 years old? Or do they currently depreciate too quickly ?

Salaries are not generally considered “capital” - HR wording aside, you do not own your employees. It’s an immediate expense that may, or may not, produce something of value.

The IRS is using a theory of value where software (1) is a capital asset (okay, sure), (2) has a six-year deprecation schedule (uhhh why not 5 like everything else?), and (3) is valued at the exact cost of all inputs to it, including salaries (uh oh).

This is unlike how capital assets are valued for any other industry! And it has the effect that hiring a second lawyer is “cheaper” (for five years anyway) than hiring a second developer.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#66
A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer.

Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit.

Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" an "expense", regardless of the fact that you paid them.

What you've actually done, Congress said, is bought a capital good, like a machine. And for calculating tax owed, you have to depreciate that over several years (5 in this case).

Depreciating means that if you pay an engineer $200k in a year, in tax-world you only had $40k of real expense that year, even though you paid them $200k.

So the effect is that it makes engineers much more expensive, because normally when a company hires an engineer, like they spend on any other expense, they can at least think "well, they will reduce our profit, which reduces our tax obligation," but in this case software engineers are special and aren't deductible in the same way.

In the case of the $200k engineer, you deduct the first $40k in the first year, then you can expense another $40k from that first year in the second year, the third $40k in the third year, and so on through the fifth year. So eventually you get to expense the entire first year of the engineer's pay, but only after five years.

The effect is that companies wind up using their scarce capital to loan the federal government money for five years, and so engineers become a heavy financial burden. If a company hires too many engineers, they will owe the federal government income tax even in years in which they were unprofitable.

These rules, by the way, don't apply to other personnel costs. If you hire an HR person or a corporate executive, you expense them in the year you paid them. It's a special rule for software engineers.

It was passed by Congress during the first Trump administration in order to offset the costs of other corporate tax rate cuts, due to budgeting rules.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#68
post #55
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isnt this just false? I thought corporate taxes are levied on net income?

Have you read section 174? It forces software to be classified as R&D and then use a weird 6 year amortization (10-20-20-20-20-10) for the salary.

Oh amortizing salary is kinda weird, I thought it meant like data center expenses must be amortized

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#69

Other than it’s nice not to have your profession taxed, what is the argument that software development shouldn’t be taxed as opposed to all sorts of other white collar work?

I posted a short explanation here [0] on the thread the other day, but the even shorter explanation is that "software development shouldn't be taxed" is not an accurate description of what repealing the change to Section 174 would do. This discussion has nothing to do with what work gets taxed (all profit is taxed no matter the industry) and everything to do with what counts as "profit".

The Section 174 changes altered the accounting method that software development companies must use for calculating their profit for tax purposes. Starting in 2022 software dev must be treated not as an expense but as an investment in an asset, such that you're now required to amortize the expense over 5 years instead of deducting it from your revenue the year you spent the money.

The gigantic problem with this change is that without the ability to expense software development expenses as expenses, a new software startup can very easily be considered profitable in their first year because only 10% of their software development-related expenses get to be counted as expenses.

And note that, contrary to what you say, most white-collar work is not treated this way, and software is further singled out from other R&D-type work in that it is the only type of work that is explicitly called out in the section as being required to be marked as R&D. So we're not asking for software to be treated specially, we're asking why it suddenly changed in 2022 to be treated specially in an extremely negative way.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44204565

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#70
For folks that don't know the background on this, here's a layperson summary:

- A business is usually taxed on its profits: you deduct your revenue from the cost of producing that revenue, and the delta is what you are taxed on.

- In software businesses, this usually means if you spend $1M in software development to develop a web app, and it makes $1.1M in that year, you'd get taxed on the $100K profits.

- However, a few years ago, the IRS stopped allowing the $1M to be deducted in the year it was incurred. Instead, the $1M was to be amortized over 5 years, so now the business can only count $200K as the deductible expense for that year. So now it's going to be taxed on "profits" of $900K. Assuming the tax rate is 20%, that means the business owes $180K in taxes, even though it has a total of $100K in the bank after the actual expenses were paid. So it would have to either borrow to pay taxes or raise venture capital, meaning that VC-funded companies would be advantaged over bootstrapped ones!

- The letter's goal is to bring things back to how they were (and how they are for all other businesses): let businesses deduct their actual expenses from their actual revenue, and tax that actual profit.

I am neither a lawyer nor an accountant, this is just my understanding of this issue.

Edit: Switched the tax rate to 20%. The logic is still the same.

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