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Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

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Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#751

Post by rendall »

consumer451 wrote: post #581
rendall wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horseshoe theory has always read like a Pythagorean epicycle to me, an attempt to redeem a broken model. For a reductive political model, I prefer the 2 dimensional Collectivist-Individualist, Authoritarian-Libertarian axes. No need to literally contort the outdated Left-Right spectrum. An added benefit is you get to avoid annoying semantic battles such as whether Nazis or Fascists are Right wing or Left wing. Plus y…

To me, the horshoe theory is just a step in the right direction. It shows the limits of a straight 1D line to describe politics, and is a stepping-off point for deeper exploration. Ideally, maybe we would describe a person's politics with something like a tensor, where each value is the person's support of a specific policy.

Hmm. I guess I feel that "The Horseshoe Theory" is worse than useless. It implies that as someone gets "too much" Right or Left, they inevitably become authoritarian, as if centrists cannot be authoritarian. It equates "weirdness" with "bad". I'd argue that we should skip straight to identifying "authoritarianism" as the problem, and the not having weird or even extreme leftist or rightist ideas.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#752

Post by hinkley »

burnte wrote: post #678
pessimist wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out that when elections are fought on the basis of identity (race, religion) etc corruption is actually considered a benefit! This is because the loyalists interpret this as "we" are winning and "they" are losing. I witnessed this up close in India where parties openly exist to benefit certain constituencies based on caste, language, religion and so on. It is horrifying to see this attitude take root in my a…

> It is horrifying to see this attitude take root in my adopted land. Agreed, and I was born here. I was taught we expressly want to reject those things, and now it's all the fashion. It feels like a temper tantrum from a third of the electorate, a rejection of adulthood and reason.

It's because we tried to take down the 'no girls or brown people' sign.

All of this is a long temper tantrum about Obama and then Mrs Clinton, emphasis on the Mrs.

If I had a time machine I would take documentation back and convince someone that we need a few more Old White Guys to let the GOP's base unrustle their jimmies for a bit.

I predicted something like this coming back in the late 90's, not that anyone should have listened to me about civics. I say 'like this', but... not like this. And if I had someone would have requested "wellness checks" (which is American for 'check to see if we can have him involuntarily committed to a mental facility) on my behalf.

My notion back then was that the vibe of the country was such that a black man would need to be elected before a white woman was a serious contender. But that there would have to be a delay. When you rush progress you can spin out. And fuck if we haven't spun out.

Maybe they'll go for a whip-smart gay man next term? Who knows.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#753

Post by Propelloni »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #739
Propelloni wrote: post #719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those fighting democracies are very specific about what is and what is not irreconcilable. For example, in Germany you can murder the president--that's just homicide--but you cannot abolish the protection of minorities. That's a violation of the constitution. Germany's far-right party Alternative für Deutschland has been under suspicion of violating a few of those provisions for quite some time now. The Federal Offic…

I'm not sure Germany's approach is a good one, based on the historical record: https://www.thefire.org/news/blogs/eternally-radical-idea/wo...

Me neither, but as the discussers point out, the Weimar Republic totally failed to apply serious consquences, e.g. Hitler's very short arrest after the Munich coup. Besides, the safeguards include more than limiting free speech.

Of course, those safeguards were designed in the late 1940s, so it's interesting, to say the least, how they cope with modern demagoguery. In any case it is worth a try.

Tangentially, that's a great site! I hadn't heard of FIRE before, but I'm glad they exist. I hope they don't get suborned by one side or the other.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#754

Post by mousethatroared »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #737
mousethatroared wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Athens is a part of the West. I never denied that. But how about Jerusalem? How about Rome? How about uncivilized (ie without a city) barbarians? How about the over 1600 years of history since the split of the Roman empire? The 1000 years since the Schism? The 500 years since the Fall of Constantinople? The Eastern Roman Empire was of a completely different character than the Western one, follows a vastly differ…

You are conflating different and irrelevant arguments. The discussion was never about Byzantium or modern Greece. It was whether we can trace the beginning of Western civilisation in Ancient Greece instead of Rome, which indeed we can. Far before Christianity, a topic which you seem blindly passionate about, with some apparent beef against Orthodoxy. This has little to do with Christianity. And I find little interest…

If we're tracing seeds, the Ancient Greeks openly acknowledged their debt to Egypt. Therefore the Egyptians invented the West.

But my point is that the West is Rome enlightened by Greeks and humanized by Jews.

What is Athens + Jerusalem? Eastern Europe. Orthodoxy. (No beef, btw. Ive been to Meteora and just missed a chance to stay in Mt. Athos)

What is Rome + Athens + Jerusalem? The Catholic Church.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#755

Post by exe34 »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #42

It's wild that a president can say, "I don't like Elon anymore, so out of retaliation, I'm canceling all his government contracts," and ~40% of the country doesn't see that as corruption in any way, shape, or form. Government contracts should not be based on whether or not the president likes the CEO, and the CEO says enough good things about the president. If you can cancel contacts not based on merit, then it shoul…

At this point I'm just happy these two are turning on each other - the more they hurt each other, the less time they have to focus on the rest of us. 6 months was a long time to wait, but I suppose dismantling the machinery of state that was trying to force his companies to follow the law wasn't going to be a quick job.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#757

Post by consumer451 »

thephyber wrote: post #697
consumer451 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great example of the horseshoe theory of politics [0], which I believe in very strongly. I made a separate post if anyone cares to discuss it. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44214040

Horseshoe Theory is stupid. It’s based on the flawed assumption that politics can or should be understood on a single axis. It can’t and shouldn’t be. That heuristic is wrong. If viewed on a 2d axis, the “cohorts that appear similar” on the ends of the horseshoe are still on opposing ends of one of the axes, despite being near each other on another axis.

I see it as the gateway to people realizing that the left/right 1D line, and even the political compass, are ridiculous.

IMHO, political positioning should be described as a tensor, where each data point is the person's position on a specific policy.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#758

Post by consumer451 »

rendall wrote: post #751
consumer451 wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, the horshoe theory is just a step in the right direction. It shows the limits of a straight 1D line to describe politics, and is a stepping-off point for deeper exploration. Ideally, maybe we would describe a person's politics with something like a tensor, where each value is the person's support of a specific policy.

Hmm. I guess I feel that "The Horseshoe Theory" is worse than useless. It implies that as someone gets "too much" Right or Left, they inevitably become authoritarian, as if centrists cannot be authoritarian. It equates "weirdness" with "bad". I'd argue that we should skip straight to identifying "authoritarianism" as the problem, and the not having weird or even extreme leftist or rightist ideas.

This is a really interesting argument that I had not previously considered. It might take me a few days/weeks/months to fully process. Thank you.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#759

Post by consumer451 »

ahf8Aithaex7Nai wrote: post #380
consumer451 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great example of the horseshoe theory of politics [0], which I believe in very strongly. I made a separate post if anyone cares to discuss it. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44214040

It should be a trident theory.

If you don't mind, could you expand on this a bit?

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#760

Post by aucisson_masque »

redserk wrote: post #668
aucisson_masque wrote: post #661

> Trump said that Isaacman was a Democrat, although Isaacman has donated to both Republican and Democratic candidates and organizations over the year. Beside the polemic over two toddler arguing in public, what grab my attention is the fact that someone who is considered to be appointed to NASA leadership use to give money to both opposite political side during election. That’s messed up, someone like that has obviou…

Why not? We don’t know his motivations for political donations. At the very least it might be worth questioning what he found appealing about each candidate’s view of NASA and leadership. But an outright disqualification over this? Should we pull up voter records and see which party’s primary each person participated in? I’d strongly prefer a society where agency leaders are picked for their expertise, not party alle…

> I’d strongly prefer a society where agency leaders are picked for their expertise, not party allegiance.

Me too of course, but it’s not even about that. I could understand if they chose someone because he is competent and republican.

What triggers me is the kind of snake this man is, if the Chinese offered him money to reveal secrets and he thinks he can get away with, I have no doubt he would collaborate.

You need a man you can trust at this position, someone that wouldn’t betray his country. If he’s the kind to spread money on both side of the political spectrum, regardless of his moral compass, or just dignity, I would be extremely cautious.

That’s basically not a man with conviction, or dignity.

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