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Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

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Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#731

Post by alimw »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #693
CamperBob2 wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really buy the education argument. How do you "educate" somebody who lived through the first Trump administration and voted for more of the same? Let's get specific: what exactly did they miss in school that would have driven them towards a different decision? At some point it's necessary to confront the uncomfortable truth: stupid people are easy for smart, ill-intentioned people to herd, which gives the lat…

>This bug in democracy was there in the beginning. But it's only now, 2500 years later, that it can be exploited effectively enough to invalidate the whole concept. Not sure where the 2500 number came from. The US is about 250 years old, and the founders were extremely wary of democracy based on its history prior to the US. The US constitution was designed to mitigate issues with democracy, e.g. that is the purpose o…

> Not sure where the 2500 number came from.

Athens probably? From what I remember of school, this was the world's first democracy. (I've heard that Americans are taught something else!)

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#732

Post by ringeryless »

palmfacehn wrote: post #710
EasyMark wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's kind of what the USA is going through right now but it's more aptly described as "tyranny of the plurality" because Trump didn't win either majority of of registered voters or majority of the actual vote.

Regardless of tiresome partisan hyperbole, I don't regard the substance of this administration's actions as any more authoritarian the previous or the status quo. In the specific instances where state power has been expanded, I regard it as part of the general trend of expansion. The trend is more indicative of the overall incentives and structure of governance, rather than specific political actors. Similarly, parti…

i tend to see trumps abuse of office as an unprecedented claim to powers a president does not, did not, and should not have.

only partisan blinders would cause one to equate trumps actions with anything from our past.

mark my words, maga is about dismantling the american system and establishing a totalitarian state. obey.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#733

Post by presentation »

aucisson_masque wrote: post #661

> Trump said that Isaacman was a Democrat, although Isaacman has donated to both Republican and Democratic candidates and organizations over the year. Beside the polemic over two toddler arguing in public, what grab my attention is the fact that someone who is considered to be appointed to NASA leadership use to give money to both opposite political side during election. That’s messed up, someone like that has obviou…

Why do you think that people have to be loyal to a single political party?

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#734

Post by mousethatroared »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #718
mousethatroared wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I thought he was referring to the clowns they have in Athens. But, no. The Greeks didn't create Western Civilization because the only non-awkward definition of Western Civilization is that scion of the Roman Church. Surely the cultural exchange with Greeks contributed to this. Greece was always eastern facing as far back as before Alexander. It is only with the Cold War that they glanced West. Aside for Magna Gre…

I don't know why you are angry at history and frankly I don't care, but you should read a bit more. Even the Roman pantheon was practically a copy of the Greek one, Greek was the language of science and philosophy, the first people to study mathematics in the west and so on and so forth. All the great Romans revered Greece and Greek. Anyway I don't know why I'm explaining history to some random angry kid online, have…

Yes, Athens is a part of the West. I never denied that. But how about Jerusalem? How about Rome? How about uncivilized (ie without a city) barbarians?

How about the over 1600 years of history since the split of the Roman empire?

The 1000 years since the Schism?

The 500 years since the Fall of Constantinople?

The Eastern Roman Empire was of a completely different character than the Western one, follows a vastly different path, and one that started diverging (due to all the heresies [0]) as early as Constantine. Since the fall of Constantinople the Greeks had very limited contact with the West until independence in the late 19th century.

According to you the West didn't do anything, didn't evolve, in the last 1600 years since we've been de facto incommunicado?

For example, to say that the West of the Scholastics is "Greek" when the Greeks have always rejected them (with very poignant criticism might I add) is a laugh in the face of the Scholastic's transformational contribution to the West (above all our modern university system).

St Augustine [1] , Boetius [2], and the Papacy [3] create the West anew from of these ingredients.

[0] which (Russian Orthodox) Solovyev lays at the feet of a jealous Greek hierarchy [1] accepted but looked down on by the Greeks [2] the last of the ancients and the first of the Scholastics [3] the most foundational institution for the West and rejected by the Greeks

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#735

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

alimw wrote: post #731
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This bug in democracy was there in the beginning. But it's only now, 2500 years later, that it can be exploited effectively enough to invalidate the whole concept. Not sure where the 2500 number came from. The US is about 250 years old, and the founders were extremely wary of democracy based on its history prior to the US. The US constitution was designed to mitigate issues with democracy, e.g. that is the purpose o…

> Not sure where the 2500 number came from. Athens probably? From what I remember of school, this was the world's first democracy. (I've heard that Americans are taught something else!)

I didn't get the impression that Athenian democracy was particularly successful. So it seemed weird to say that the flaws in democracy are only now becoming apparent.

In fact, I understand that CamperBob2's critique of democracy is quite similar to that of Socrates. So I'm puzzled by the claim that it's "only now" that the critique is being proven correct, given that US democracy is notably more stable and long-lived than Athenian democracy.

In general, I think times of turmoil are always much more salient when you yourself are living through them. We lack the historical perspective to understand how bad turmoil has been in the past.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#736

Post by [deleted] »

ringeryless wrote: post #729
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This bug in democracy was there in the beginning. But it's only now, 2500 years later, that it can be exploited effectively enough to invalidate the whole concept. Not sure where the 2500 number came from. The US is about 250 years old, and the founders were extremely wary of democracy based on its history prior to the US. The US constitution was designed to mitigate issues with democracy, e.g. that is the purpose o…

umm Switzerland disagrees with the assessment of the USA being the oldest democratic republic. If we are only speaking of republic, Portugal has been one since the 12th century, albeit there's been 10 or 11 iterations on the constitution, including Salazars so-called New State.

[deleted]

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#737

Post by 4gotunameagain »

mousethatroared wrote: post #734
4gotunameagain wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you are angry at history and frankly I don't care, but you should read a bit more. Even the Roman pantheon was practically a copy of the Greek one, Greek was the language of science and philosophy, the first people to study mathematics in the west and so on and so forth. All the great Romans revered Greece and Greek. Anyway I don't know why I'm explaining history to some random angry kid online, have…

Yes, Athens is a part of the West. I never denied that. But how about Jerusalem? How about Rome? How about uncivilized (ie without a city) barbarians? How about the over 1600 years of history since the split of the Roman empire? The 1000 years since the Schism? The 500 years since the Fall of Constantinople? The Eastern Roman Empire was of a completely different character than the Western one, follows a vastly differ…

You are conflating different and irrelevant arguments. The discussion was never about Byzantium or modern Greece. It was whether we can trace the beginning of Western civilisation in Ancient Greece instead of Rome, which indeed we can. Far before Christianity, a topic which you seem blindly passionate about, with some apparent beef against Orthodoxy.

This has little to do with Christianity.

And I find little interest in this pointless discussion, therefore this is my last reply.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#738

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

zimpenfish wrote: post #725
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think FPTP ends up working out a lot different in the parliamentary context. The US only has 2 parties in Congress, despite FPTP. In terms of strength of 3rd parties, I'd say they are generally quite weak in the US system, somewhat stronger in a proportional representation parliamentary system, and potentially overpowered in a FPTP parliament like in the UK. Historically I believe the 2-party system in the US was p…

> the 2 major parties have acquired too many extremists. You're blaming both parties for where the US is now?

Yep, see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44216278

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#739

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

Propelloni wrote: post #719
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Modern, ie. post-WW2, "fighting democracies" have built-in safeguards to oppose internal enemies of democracy, but if they are effective remains to be seen. Eh, "internal enemies of democracy" is way too vague. E.g. Trump supporters claim that "unelected bureaucrats" in the "deep state" are enemies of democracy. Anyone can call anyone an "enemy of democracy".

Those fighting democracies are very specific about what is and what is not irreconcilable. For example, in Germany you can murder the president--that's just homicide--but you cannot abolish the protection of minorities. That's a violation of the constitution. Germany's far-right party Alternative für Deutschland has been under suspicion of violating a few of those provisions for quite some time now. The Federal Offic…

I'm not sure Germany's approach is a good one, based on the historical record:

https://www.thefire.org/news/blogs/eternally-radical-idea/wo...

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#740

Post by thinkindie »

esafak wrote: post #351
thinkindie wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trumpism is just another league I believe. You may say it's Berlusconism on steroids, but the global impact makes this a thing by itself.

It really isn't; Trump just has a bigger stage. Trumpism is a misnomer by itself; Trump has no ideology, no grand scheme that I can discern.

bigger stage and bigger impact. Trump had more impact on the world trades in a few months than Berlusconi in 20 years as Berlusconi was limited to Italy and sometimes Europe.
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