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Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

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Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#231
post #110

Can someone steelman the positives for me? I don't see how it's anything but pure regulatory capture favoring established tech firms. A small company ramping up revenue simply can't handle this amortization while a large, established company can. That being said, I do think there's a little sloppiness in what is categorized as "R&D" in the software development. Is code maintenance R&D? Bug fixes? Performance improvem…

Generally the US requires valuable assets to be depreciated and amortized over their useful life. This is arguably a fair way to tax businesses with fewer downsides than many alternatives.

Consider a different situation, a business pays employees to build a residential home for $275k total, the land is worth zero in this simple example. Currently they can deduct $10k a year for 27.5 years to depreciate the home, even though they paid $275k up front. Allowing the business to deduct the entire $275k at once, only recovering the difference when the depreciated asset is sold is basically a tax free loan at the expense of all other taxpayers.

To be fair there are many situations where the government wants to incentivize spending in certain areas. Certain types of businesses can avoid depreciation and deduct full expenses, like for farm equipment and heavy duty vehicles, previously most R&D. Or where accelerated or bonus depreciation is used because most of the income is in the first few years. Like a taxi follows a 5 year double depreciation schedule, in the first year a $25k taxi would depreciate $10k, then $6k the next year, there are many examples that are on a shorter schedule.

Keeping a 5 year straight line depreciation on R&D benefits large established businesses and burdens startups, this is primarily a political decision and not economic. Another issue is that not all R&D spending results in a valuable asset with a usable life

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#232

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

Forgive the naive question, but is this different than other payrolled employees? So for normal employees you get the deduct the year it's paid, but for some reason for software developers you have to amortize it?

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#233

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

say I work for a company for 5 years as a software developer, at $200k/yr the entire time. is this how it works: year 1: company deducts $40k: 1/5 of the salary for year 1. year 2: company deducts $80k: 1/5 of the salary for year 2, and 1/5 of the salary of year 1. year 3: company deducts $120k: 1/5 of the salary for year 3, 1/5 of the salary for year 2, and 1/5 of the salary for year 1. year 4: company deducts $160k…

That's not really the issue (and I say this as a socialist). The issue is that it's a weak and very leaky definition that attempts to redefine anyone that touches "software development" away from being taxed like employees into being taxed like machines that produce assets at the same value as their cost of operating.

This punishes small businesses and new businesses more than any large org because it massively increases the cost of operating for the first few years.

And importantly it just doesn't do so consistently.

Orgs should have a higher tax burden. This just doesn't do that, instead this is punishing orgs for trying to do new things and rewarding existing momentum (i.e. the large corporations that already have a profitable revenue stream and a long trail of employment history).

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#234

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

Maybe this is a dumb question, but if you only deduct part of their salary in the first year, what happens if you have a software developer for several years? And then what happens after five years if they are still around?

> Maybe this is a dumb question, but if you only deduct part of their salary in the first year, what happens if you have a software developer for several years?

Not dumb at all! In the second year, you get to deduct ⅕th of the previous year’s salary and ⅕th of the current year’s salary; likewise, in the third year you get to deduct ⅕th of the first year’s salary, ⅕th of the second year’s salary and ⅕th of the third year’s salary.

The key thing is that in the fifth and following years, a business would deduct a fifth of each of the previous five year’s engineering payrolls. This is not great for a growing business, but it’s murder on a startup trying to grow from zero.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#235
Why is it that tracking expenses as R&D is bad? Where I work, we started tracking our R&D hours compared to other work recently, and an increase in R&D hours has resulted in less tax burden.

Edit: not sure why the downvote, it's an honest question. I'm not arguing anything.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#236

Thank you for helping to tackle this. The silence on this issue for the past few years from smaller software companies and their affiliates was surprising to me. The recent "time bomb" article was one of the few media pieces that actually took the time to describe it as anything other than a "tax cut for huge tech companies", which was refreshing. My current favorite theory as to why there hasn't been more of an outc…

And this benefits big firms because they are the only ones who can afford it. Same for most bullshit laws.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#237

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

So it applies to software engineers but under what definition of software engineer? This [1] is the only definition the code actually give. > (3) Software development > For purposes of this section, any amount paid or incurred in connection with the development of any software shall be treated as a research or experimental expenditure. 1. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/174 ----- Is a test or QA engineer c…

The answer to all these questions is yes, i don't see the point in trying to obfuscate this with artificial complexity.

What about HR, etc who use excel documents?

IF they are using it rather than developing it, no. If they put in 5 hours a week writing code, yes for those 5 hours. This isn't hard.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#238
I seem to remember people being broadly in favor of this change at the time it was first proposed because it would elevade software development and create more long-term stability, but in a world where the primary focus is on quarterly funding rounded and acquisitions it obviously skews the numbers and thus the potential founded/early investor upside.

There are two possible motivations for the impending change. One is the argument that deducting 100% of developer labor isn't ideal because developers create IP whose value can compound as an asset, rather than the labor being 'consumed' in production as with manufacturing (where any long-term benefit after the initial sale goes to the consumer). The other is that it's a legislative stick designed to herd a powerful investor/donor lobby into supporting budget legislation in exchange for turning the favorable tax treatment faucet back on.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree this sounds like bad policy, but what's the logic for doing this with actual capital goods then? Doesn't that have exactly the same problem of limiting corporate investment?

Accounting likes to recognize expenses with revenues. If an asset will be producing revenue for five years, its cost is recognized over that same time span.

So...don't you get value from the newly created software for ~5 years?

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#240

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

I agree this sounds like bad policy, but what's the logic for doing this with actual capital goods then? Doesn't that have exactly the same problem of limiting corporate investment?

The only logic was to make the Trump 2017 tax cuts look "revenue neutral". They were cooking the books so the CBO would give the tax cuts a passing grade.

https://americansfortaxfairness.org/ways-means-trump-tax-law... Quote: Corporations have traditionally been allowed to deduct all of their research expenses in the year incurred, even though a lot of research pays off slowly so its costs should similarly be written off over time. Adopting this position, and as a way to partially pay for its big corporate-rate cut, the Trump-GOP tax law decreed that starting in 2022 companies would have to write off research and experimentation expenses gradually: over five years for domestic research, 15 years for foreign. This requirement to “amortize” the expense over time reduces the value of the deduction, increasing corporations’ taxable income and requiring them to pay more in income taxes upfront. The Ways & Means legislation proposes to retroactively reverse this provision.

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