Live data from Hacker News

Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

news.ycombinator.com

211–220 of 957 posts

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#211

I was under the impression that this was included in the current one big bill and will continue to be included. It’s not something we would expect to be removed.

The current one big bill does a 5 year reversion back to the old rules, and then goes back to the problem existing. So it is the same idea as the 2017 bill.

See https://exactera.com/resources/what-one-big-beautiful-bill-a... for details. I will warn you, though, that the provisions are complicated enough that it is hard to read the article.

The problem is that we don't know whether this will get fixed in that time frame. Also that big bill introduces its own problems. A future Congress with debt financing problems may not realistically have the freedom to revert terms such as this one.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Strictly speaking every single one of those jobs falls under that role Q: Isn't this about whether you're doing "R&D" or not?

No, it classifies all software development as R&D by definition .

> it classifies all software development as R&D by definition

We may need to argue about the word "development", but in any case, do you have a reference for that?

https://www.thomsonreuters.com/en-us/posts/tax-and-accountin...

"In the United States, to help spawn innovation as part of the Economic Recovery and Tax Act of 1981, the Research & Experimentation Tax Credit was introduced. Although it was initially supposed to last three years as a specific incentive to encourage companies to invest in R&D, Congress recognized its value in helping businesses create more products and services.

However, it was quickly realized that this tax code made calculations for R&D complicated, especially for small businesses, which led the government to create other iterations of tax codes in order to help clarify the situation. However, not until 2017 and the enactment of Section 174 of the TCJA has there been such a comprehensive change to R&D accounting.

Indeed, before the TCJA’s enactment, businesses deducted the total amount of R&D expenditures as an expense in the taxable year. Beginning in 2022, all costs related to R&D must now be amortized over five years for US-based companies or 15 years for non-US companies."

I'm struggling to understand why we think R&D expenditure - including software development - should not be amortised?

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I understand internet freedom causes better. Also, they are universal worldwide, this is USA specific

It affects any software developers worldwide that work for US companies. The specific tax law is even worse for foreign developers, since it requires amortization of non-American software developer expenses over 15 years instead of 5 years. How much code is written that retains its value for 15 years?

Probably less than 1%.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#214

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

How do we restore only the tax deduction and not pass the rest of the BBB?

You don't. That's how bills are passed: everyone adds a little of what they want. To the extreme, it's called "pork barrel politics", but there's a whole continuum between that and a basic compromise.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#216
post #185
post #110

Can someone steelman the positives for me? I don't see how it's anything but pure regulatory capture favoring established tech firms. A small company ramping up revenue simply can't handle this amortization while a large, established company can. That being said, I do think there's a little sloppiness in what is categorized as "R&D" in the software development. Is code maintenance R&D? Bug fixes? Performance improvem…

Doesn't this kind of make sense if software is an asset? If your company purchases a seat of Oracle or Solidworks or Windows 11 or whatever. I don't think you can expense that all at one time, you have to amortize over the useful life of the software, just like if it was a physical printing press or a backhoe. Similar if you were making a software program for sale or for use internally, there is the upfront costs ass…

The vast majority of software barely qualifies as an asset, since it has no intrinsic value. It isn’t like a tractor or a factory, which has a non-zero market-clearing price.

A one-off shell script has an asset value of zero after its single use but still counts as a long-term capital asset for tax purposes.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#217

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

I agree this sounds like bad policy, but what's the logic for doing this with actual capital goods then? Doesn't that have exactly the same problem of limiting corporate investment?

Accounting likes to recognize expenses with revenues. If an asset will be producing revenue for five years, its cost is recognized over that same time span.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#218

Signed. That said, here's my perspective on 174 (which should be reverted to full deduction on the year the expense is incurred). You do not have to amortize 100% of your engineering costs. Not even close. Here's the key: Development costs incurred to remove uncertainty are amortized. All other costs are deductible during the tax year where they are incurred. How does this work? You are going to design a new robot ar…

Could you use the vibe coding loophole to eliminate all uncertainty: the AI has the answers you need you just need to develop by continuously prompting and reviewing until the solution is ready for production?

These are questions for a tax attorney.

If you are a pure software company (no hardware or other activities) your options are rather limited.

Also, as I said in other posts, at year six you reach steady-state and are amortizing the full amount every year. Example:

                         amortization for each year
             R&D         year 1   year 2   year 3   year 4   year 5     year 6
  year 1     1,000,000  100,000  200,000  200,000  200,000  200,000    100,000
  year 2     1,000,000           100,000  200,000  200,000  200,000    200,000
  year 3     1,000,000                    100,000  200,000  200,000    200,000
  year 4     1,000,000                             100,000  200,000    200,000
  year 5     1,000,000                                      100,000    200,000
  year 6     1,000,000                                                 100,000 
                              
  total amortization:   100,000  300,000  500,000  700,000  900,000  1,000,000 
  
Not ideal, of course, but if you are not a "flash in the pan" company, at year 6 it feels like this rule doesn't exist, other words, you are amortizing the full $1MM every year. The TVM on the deductions you could not take until steady-state is reached is part of the hit you take. The other is taxes on profits from operations during the early years.

Most companies don't have profits rise exponentially during the first few years, so it might not be too bad. Also, there are many ways to mitigate this. For example, section 179, which allows businesses to deduct the full purchase price of qualifying equipment and software in the year it's put into service, rather than depreciating it over several years. In other words, instead of paying taxes on your profits, use that money to buy GPU's computers, tools or whatever you might need. Easy.

A tax attorney is essential if you want to minimize tax liabilities intelligently and within the bounds of the law.

But, yes, 174 needs to go back to full annual deductions.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#219

For folks that don't know the background on this, here's a layperson summary: - A business is usually taxed on its profits: you deduct your revenue from the cost of producing that revenue, and the delta is what you are taxed on. - In software businesses, this usually means if you spend $1M in software development to develop a web app, and it makes $1.1M in that year, you'd get taxed on the $100K profits. - However, a…

While this does convey the idea, the premise is also biased. > even though it has a total of $100K in the bank after the actual expenses were paid. People running a business can perfectly understand the concept of liquidity. And yes, just because you transform money to something else, then it doesn't mean that you should not be taxed on it. The extreme example is a company that buys gold on the last trading day of th…

I think you are conflating "software engineers" with "software". A business that pays a software engineer doesn't automatically receive working software in return, especially not in the first year. It doesn't seem fair to assume that paying a dev $200k means that the business received an asset (some code) worth $200k in return, and thus can be taxed on it as if it were an asset producing $200k in profits a year.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#220
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nuts, since a payroll should never be considered an asset. That's trying to put a material value on software, and doing it based on the salaries of developers is as crazy as valuing it in lines of code. The value of software could be based on something more realistic, like a percentage of actual revenue, but I suppose tech giants would be against that.

> That's trying to put a material value on software, and doing it based on the salaries of developers is as crazy as valuing it in lines of code. Software clearly has material value. For software that is built, not bought, the company building it clearly values it exactly enough to pay the salaries of the software developers building it. What other estimate of its material value is better than the one that the compan…

The argument I’ve heard is it specifically makes investing in speculative software (new product lines, new features, etc) more expensive.

If you’re doing new drug discovery at a bio-lab, treating all your failures as depreciating “assets” seems bonkers. The same seems true of much software development where the work product ends up thrown away.

Post reply on HN