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Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

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Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#141

Post by amanaplanacanal »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #110
jeffbee wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're misrepresenting the situation and the relationship between the federal and state and local governments. There certainly is not anything in the Constitution that compels a local government to allow a federal agency to house their prisoners in the local jail, or to have offices in the local police station, or to have keys to the coffee room in the local courthouse. For that matter, if the feds happen to…

Not giving material support, sure. "We don't like your law. You have the right to enforce it, but we are not going to help you do so." Sure, that's fine. Actively hindering is a whole additional step, though. I'm pretty sure at least some cities crossed it. ( How actively? Not to the point of arresting or shooting at ICE agents, but still further than "not helping". And if you're going to ask for references, I can't…

"My impression" isn't a very convincing argument.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#142

Post by anonfordays »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #136
anonfordays wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Modern conservatism grew out of authoritarian monarchist philosophers Not in the US. Modern conservatism in the US is tied to the individualistic self-reliance movement that rejects the concept of rulers at the top in favor of States' rights and local governance. It is classically liberal with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech. You…

I think you are a couple decades behind the times. The current Republican party doesn't share those values any more. The current conservative movement is all in on monarchy, not what you are proposing. Look at Moldbug/Yarvin for their current philosophy.

>I think you are a couple decades behind the times.

Not at all, stop getting political commentary from reddit comments. Bush, Romney, McCain were all in the past two decades.

>The current conservative movement is all in on monarchy, not what you are proposing. Look at Moldbug/Yarvin for their current philosophy.

The current Republican party's platform follows classical liberalism: "Classical liberalism is a political tradition and a branch of liberalism that advocates free market and laissez-faire economics and civil liberties under the rule of law, with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech."[0]

You can argue that Trump isn't following that, but it is what the Republican party has incorporated into it's platform for decades.

>Moldbug/Yarvin

Basically a non-player who is oversold on reddit as having some outsized influence.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#143

Post by mindslight »

motorest wrote: post #86
dgfitz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lest we all forget, the messaging coming out the the White House at the beginning was "masks are ineffective"

> Lest we all forget, the messaging coming out the the White House at the beginning was "masks are ineffective" If I recall correctly, at the onset of the covid pandemic the general guidance was to not rush to buy masks with the goal to prevent a supply crunch that would impact first-line responders. This guidance was quickly switched to a global recommendation to wear masks so to prevent and slow down how the diseas…

as someone who was wearing a respirator before the pandemic was even acknowledged by the government -

The original CDC statement was something like "masks have not been shown to be effective for the general population". It was technically correct, but if you weren't reading defensively you'd come away with the impression they were stating a negative suggestion rather than the null suggestion (ie nothing). So despite being technically correct, most people would consider this a lie, especially if they were misled by it.

It was definitely a black mark on the CDC response - they should have been honest with people that there simply weren't enough respirators, delay the statement by a day if the healthcare system needed more time to destock Home Depot.

But how that statement gets dragged out as an example of the government being deliberately wrong, to imply that it must have been prudent to do the opposite of what they said is also terribly misguided.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#144

Post by antifa »

ericmay wrote: post #9
komali2 wrote: post #2

[flagged]

When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then? One person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist. Always has been and always will be that way. The winning side when there is one usually gets to write the history of who was what. Do you still feel pride in American anti-auth…

> One person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist.

Lol no, not even close. One person was asked nicely to wear masks and lock down and offered massive PPP loans, the other is resisting federal storm troopers kidnapping people at their place of work who are being sent to overseas concentration camps with their constitutional right to due process being violated.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#145

Post by Supermancho »

anonfordays wrote: post #140
Supermancho wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cherry picking isn't compelling. The parallels between the philosophies of ICE and Israel are noticeable. ie Extraneous damage and laws broken along the way are justified collateral damage by sympathizers. A dark period for the US, indeed.

[dead]

>>>> ICE's actions are wildly illegal.

>>> No they're not. Deporting illegal aliens is not "wildly" illegal. - anonfordays

>> Cherry picking isn't compelling.

> Glad that's not what I'm doing. - anonfordays

Yes it is. "Actions" is broader than your cherry picked singular action - "deporting illegals". Rephrasing, graciously, something like "the deporting of illegals is the goal and that's lawful" would be more correct. Unfortunately, I don't think you have anything to add to a good faith discussion. Good luck with whatever.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#146

Post by [deleted] »

sQL_inject wrote: post #18
komali2 wrote: post #2

[flagged]

"critical of people for defending the city from ICE stormtroopers. I see people justifying paper-checking, something I'm sure we roundly mocked the Soviets for doing - I thought gestapo agents checking the papers of people in the streets was commie shit?" Truly curious, what methods are you suggesting we use to keep our immigrant population tracked and controlled? If the immigrants aren't leaving after being asked ni…

[deleted]

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#147

Post by ben_w »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #85
pjc50 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what methods are you suggesting we use to keep our immigrant population tracked and controlled? You can't track and control only immigrants. Any such system would include tracking and controls of citizens, simply in order to sort them into the "not immigrant" category. Hence all the "papers please". (Not to mention the false positive problem!)

That is true, but it doesn't answer sQL_inject's point. You can't track and control only immigrants, therefore... what? Don't control immigrants at all, once they're here? Make it across the border and you're good forever? Or all, citizens or not, have to show papers to prove who they are? I don't like either of those alternatives, but those seem to be the only options that are being advocated at the moment. Is there…

There is no other (let alone better) option — those cover all possibilities.

If you don't check papers (or an equivalent), you automatically don't control immigrants at all once they're in your borders. To control them requires everyone has an ID, because otherwise some immigrant who doesn't want to have ID for whatever reason can just say "of course I don't have papers, only immigrants have papers and I'm not an immigrant".

The entire point of papers is to determine if someone is or isn't in some category (including but not limited to "immigrant").

What you can do is automate ID checks. So long as you don't mind your ID being tested at random, and the way that such systems have a tendency to randomly fail and deport people who were actually allowed to remain.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#148

Post by ericmay »

motorest wrote: post #129
ericmay wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then? One person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist. Always has been and always will be that way. The winning side when there is one usually gets to write the history of who was what. Do you still feel pride in American anti-auth…

> When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then? From an outsider's perspective, it's hard to see the people with a militant attitude against basic health and higiene measures as other than narcisist authoritarian fools, who believed their personal whims naturally took priority over…

The point wasn't really to compare these two situations directly.

Personally, (and you can read through my post history if you'd like) I've been a staunch advocate of COVID-19 vaccines (and any vaccine really) and also of wearing masks as appropriate, but those who believed at the time that vaccine mandates were draconian government overreach literally believed they were freedom fighters just as much as those who are out in the streets of LA as the government comes down to do whatever it is that governments do about these various crises and concerns.

Neither group is or was fighting for a particularly worthy cause reminiscent of some conjured up spirit of the Founders. Enforce borders, get vaccines. Open borders, don't get vaccines. Yawn.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#149

Post by mlsu »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #85
pjc50 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what methods are you suggesting we use to keep our immigrant population tracked and controlled? You can't track and control only immigrants. Any such system would include tracking and controls of citizens, simply in order to sort them into the "not immigrant" category. Hence all the "papers please". (Not to mention the false positive problem!)

That is true, but it doesn't answer sQL_inject's point. You can't track and control only immigrants, therefore... what? Don't control immigrants at all, once they're here? Make it across the border and you're good forever? Or all, citizens or not, have to show papers to prove who they are? I don't like either of those alternatives, but those seem to be the only options that are being advocated at the moment. Is there…

It’s pretty simple, verify on the employer side. The fact that they are not doing this tells you all you need to know about how genuine this “immigration crackdown”is from a policy side.

It’s purely about terrorizing people and expanding the power of ICE. Citizens and non-citizens.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#150

Post by SantalBlush »

like_any_other wrote: post #78
roenxi wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That is part of why the various COVID measures proved quite unpopular. In Australia for example we saw the standard crowd-control treatments [0] being used to break up protests of people who objected to the sudden spike in authoritarianism. There was also the internationally eyebrow-raising financial abuse that the Canadians were doling out that was a new low for anti-protest tactics and political repression. [0…

You replied to "it doesn't count as anti-authoritarian if you don't get tear-gassed". I hope you are prepared for the follow up of "it doesn't count if it's not in the USA", and whatever form of special pleading to come after that.

Comment one: "It bothers me a great deal as an American to see this anti-authoritarian thread of American identity...."

Comment two: "When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks... did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then?"

Comment three: "Anybody get tear-gassed for not wearing a mask?"

Comment four: "Yes.... In Australia"

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