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Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#111

Post by taeric »

This feels odd. Many people paid dearly for being involved, period? It isn't like we have any dynasties that survived through the era, did we?

Specifically, 46 people signed the declaration of independence. How many of those are remembered today? Do I expect that people on the "other side" had it worse? Yeah, but this framing implies a spoils system.

This always makes it odd to read about narratives that go about people's connection to family land. It is almost anti American in how we were founded and grew. I know we have a few estates that are named and known. Is that a larger number than I realize?

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#112

Post by sethammons »

alex43578 wrote: post #106
ceejayoz wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not obligated to carry papers as a citizen. If I answer "yep, I'm a citizen", and ICE says at one of the internal checkpoints "well we don't believe you, prove it", what now?

If ICE has probable cause to believe you are an alien and don’t have the necessary documents, you could be detained or arrested. If ICE doesn’t have probable cause to believe you’re an alien, you’re free to go. Things could be different based on state-level stop and identify statutes when interacting with state LEO.

innocent til proven guilty. This is a core tenant. To not believe such is firmly unamerican.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#113

Post by belorn »

alecst wrote: post #35
ericmay wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then? One person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist. Always has been and always will be that way. The winning side when there is one usually gets to write the history of who was what. Do you still feel pride in American anti-auth…

Well the point of wearing a mask is mostly to protect vulnerable people, and to slow the spread of a disease. These protests are also about protecting vulnerable people. And, I would argue, to slow the spread of a disease.

It is still an ongoing research topic if wearing masks against an airborne virus that primarily spread through aerosols does anything beyond a psychological effect of getting people to distance themselves and reducing spread that way. Airborne virus are notarial at spreading in places like planes, trains, busses, subway and buildings that recycle air. Meta studies looking at the effectiveness of early measures against covid pandemic points strongly towards shutdowns of mass transportation and borders, rather than masks, as being effective. Airports being particular problematic since travelers sits closely packed in a metal tube for hours.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#114

Post by dfxm12 »

ecshafer wrote: post #109
dfxm12 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what happened to our values Concentration of media has allowed conservative think tanks to shape people's values. Ten years ago [0], this meant all conservatives were getting marching orders from Fox News. Today, there is the illusion of choice among conservative media outlets (Fox News, X, Newsmax, etc.), but they all send the same message. Even traditionally more moderate outlets, like the WSJ, are bei…

And where do liberals get their marching orders? Or did this effect not happen there?

The polling data suggests they get their news from varied sources and tend to focus on issues moreso than parties or candidates.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#115

Post by bigfishrunning »

ecshafer wrote: post #109
dfxm12 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what happened to our values Concentration of media has allowed conservative think tanks to shape people's values. Ten years ago [0], this meant all conservatives were getting marching orders from Fox News. Today, there is the illusion of choice among conservative media outlets (Fox News, X, Newsmax, etc.), but they all send the same message. Even traditionally more moderate outlets, like the WSJ, are bei…

And where do liberals get their marching orders? Or did this effect not happen there?

CNN, MSNBC, HuffPo, NYT

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#116

Post by sethammons »

pjc50 wrote: post #30
sQL_inject wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"critical of people for defending the city from ICE stormtroopers. I see people justifying paper-checking, something I'm sure we roundly mocked the Soviets for doing - I thought gestapo agents checking the papers of people in the streets was commie shit?" Truly curious, what methods are you suggesting we use to keep our immigrant population tracked and controlled? If the immigrants aren't leaving after being asked ni…

> what methods are you suggesting we use to keep our immigrant population tracked and controlled? You can't track and control only immigrants. Any such system would include tracking and controls of citizens, simply in order to sort them into the "not immigrant" category. Hence all the "papers please". (Not to mention the false positive problem!)

the solution is trivial. It is easy. We've whitnessed it several times. Illegal immigration follows jobs. When the economy does poorly, less people come across. I recall a few years ago, they said it was negative immigration! More people were leaving because jobs were hard to get.

Instead of letting the economy do the work, simply enforce the laws we already have on the books. Don't let employers employ non-verified citizens.

The problem is that a common sense solution solves the problem and removes a platform for politicians to yell about and continue to do nothing over.

Step one: enforce labor laws. Step two, watch the system drain itself. Step three, look to naturalize and or remove those left behind.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#117

Post by anonfordays »

hiddencost wrote: post #24
alex43578 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you recognize the same “representative government forms the core American value” you laud is both the mechanism by which the current administration was elected, as well as the same mechanism that passed the immigration laws that are being enforced, right?

ICE's actions are wildly illegal. None of this false equivalence nonsense.

>ICE's actions are wildly illegal.

No they're not. Deporting illegal aliens is not "wildly" illegal.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#118

Post by lesuorac »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #91
JKCalhoun wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social media is the new corporate media.

Both are true. The end of the Fairness Doctrine normalised the psychotic distortions and lies pumped out by Fox. But the same machine that uses Fox also runs bot farms, astroturfing operations, and curated social media algorithms to normalise even more extreme RW POVs. And here we are.

Fox is a cable network.

Fairness doctrine only applied to limited spectrums (Radio) not to cable.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#119

Post by lesuorac »

redeux wrote: post #76
dontlaugh wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The healthcare issue doesn't even make sense. Democrats passes the ACA and were going to create a public option but couldn't gather enough Republican support to ensure it could pass. It was an earnest attempt to provide healthcare for all Americans. The Republicans have done nothing even remotely similar and have only attempted to take healthcare away.

One item over the course of 12 years is uh lip service at best.

The lesser of two evils is still an evil.

--

Somebody will certainly bring up the filibuster at some point. Thats not in the constitution and can be removed at any point by 51 senators. As a whole democrats are not united on what to do hence why they never remove it. Which then lets them point to it as a scape-goat as to why they can't fix any problems.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#120

Post by ceejayoz »

lesuorac wrote: post #119
redeux wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The healthcare issue doesn't even make sense. Democrats passes the ACA and were going to create a public option but couldn't gather enough Republican support to ensure it could pass. It was an earnest attempt to provide healthcare for all Americans. The Republicans have done nothing even remotely similar and have only attempted to take healthcare away.

One item over the course of 12 years is uh lip service at best. The lesser of two evils is still an evil. -- Somebody will certainly bring up the filibuster at some point. Thats not in the constitution and can be removed at any point by 51 senators. As a whole democrats are not united on what to do hence why they never remove it. Which then lets them point to it as a scape-goat as to why they can't fix any problems.

> One item over the course of 12 years is uh lip service at best.

For the 30M newly insured, probably not.

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