Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts • Hacker News Board

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#581

Post by consumer451 » Sun, Jun 08, 2025, 1:34 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #482

consumer451 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great example of the horseshoe theory of politics [0], which I believe in very strongly. I made a separate post if anyone cares to discuss it. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44214040

Horseshoe theory has always read like a Pythagorean epicycle to me, an attempt to redeem a broken model. For a reductive political model, I prefer the 2 dimensional Collectivist-Individualist, Authoritarian-Libertarian axes. No need to literally contort the outdated Left-Right spectrum. An added benefit is you get to avoid annoying semantic battles such as whether Nazis or Fascists are Right wing or Left wing. Plus y…

To me, the horshoe theory is just a step in the right direction. It shows the limits of a straight 1D line to describe politics, and is a stepping-off point for deeper exploration.

Ideally, maybe we would describe a person's politics with something like a tensor, where each value is the person's support of a specific policy.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#582

Post by natmaka » Sun, Jun 08, 2025, 1:44 PM UTC

pengaru wrote: post #382

natmaka wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "we" are winning and "they" are losing This is a very important rule stated by the War Nerd: 'Most people are not rational, they are TRIBAL: "my gang yay, your gang boo!" It really is that simple. The rest is cosmetics.' A small human group is compatible with this tribal behavior because the bulk of actions (or at worst their effects) are quickly perceptible to everyone. The larger the group, the less each person u…

I don't know wtf War Nerd is, but tribalism being alive and well is nowhere near a new/novel observation worth noting anyone pointed out.

It is about more than "being alive and well" but being omnipresent and determinant.

Stating it is useful because many neglect (or maybe even ignore) this fact.

The way the War Nerd puts it is IMHO the best.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#583

Post by michaelmrose » Sun, Jun 08, 2025, 1:48 PM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #522

michaelmrose wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nationalize SpaceX, which they absolutely could do. This isn't at all clear. It's clear that they could easily compel them to prioritize and fulfill government contracts. Far less clear that they could just take it. It is clear that the current administration could "try" but such an effort might result in a lawsuit that lasts longer than the administration does and thereby become moot.

It may take a long time to be fully litigated, but the courts also take a while to act, and we've seen that this administration takes full advantage of this fact. The odds are also stacked against Elon here because the national security interests would likely make a compelling argument to stay any injunctions SpaceX might seek. SpaceX might prevail in the end, but the whole process would get very uncomfortable for El…

Actually the defense production act provides a perfectly viable path actually supported by law to ensure that the governments interests are served.

An injunction would be entirely logical as it prevents irreparable harm based on a fanciful understanding of the law unlikely to prevail and hurts the government not at all.

Certainly the government trying to steal like a common criminal puts anyone in an uncomfortable position but the only real risk is the fact we live under incipient fascism.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#584

Post by yalogin » Sun, Jun 08, 2025, 1:56 PM UTC

We have moved so past the "government is expected to be impartial" and now at "if musk backs a dem I will destroy him" stage. No one bats an eye. This is going to be the norm at least on the Republican Party. I worry every one expects presidents to weaponize everything against their perceived opponents.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#585

Post by ndsipa_pomu » Sun, Jun 08, 2025, 2:05 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #18

It's wild to me how many conspiracy theories I've seen about how this is all staged, like it's a distraction or it's just Elon repairing his image and trying to rescue Tesla (whose sales are cratering). Psychologically, I think this is reflective of cognitive dissonance. The two conflicting ideas are that two people with much to lose would get in the dumbest fight imaginable and the myth of meritocracy [1]. You see,…

> Trump can simply revoke Elon's security clearance

Probably a bit late to do that as Musk can tap into the Starlink setup at the White House: https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/unvetted-starli...

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#586

Post by unicornporn » Sun, Jun 08, 2025, 2:12 PM UTC

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #548

pessimist wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out that when elections are fought on the basis of identity (race, religion) etc corruption is actually considered a benefit! This is because the loyalists interpret this as "we" are winning and "they" are losing. I witnessed this up close in India where parties openly exist to benefit certain constituencies based on caste, language, religion and so on. It is horrifying to see this attitude take root in my a…

>It turns out that when elections are fought on the basis of identity (race, religion) etc corruption is actually considered a benefit! This is because the loyalists interpret this as "we" are winning and "they" are losing. So how could one design a political system so this behavior doesn't emerge / is not incentivized?

How about not creating a precarious underclass with lack of (higher) education that is ready to vote for whatever solution promising to take down the system that made them so desperate for radical change?

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#587

Post by avaika » Sun, Jun 08, 2025, 2:16 PM UTC

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #548

pessimist wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out that when elections are fought on the basis of identity (race, religion) etc corruption is actually considered a benefit! This is because the loyalists interpret this as "we" are winning and "they" are losing. I witnessed this up close in India where parties openly exist to benefit certain constituencies based on caste, language, religion and so on. It is horrifying to see this attitude take root in my a…

>It turns out that when elections are fought on the basis of identity (race, religion) etc corruption is actually considered a benefit! This is because the loyalists interpret this as "we" are winning and "they" are losing. So how could one design a political system so this behavior doesn't emerge / is not incentivized?

In no way this is a good example of such a system, but I still find Bosnia and Herzegovina political system absolutely hilarious. After Dayton peace agreement the literally put ethnicity requirement for presidents to Constitution as a hard rule. One Bosnian, one Serb and one Croatian. And yes, the country is ran by 3 presidents at the same time. So there is no longer a competition whether the main guy in the country will be theirs or ours.

There were two guys: a Roma and a Jew in BiH who also wanted to take the president office. However according to Constitution they didn't have a chance. So they went to EU Human Rights Court to look for a justice. The court told the country it's kinda racist to have a rule like that and they should change it. This was like 15 years ago. Guess whether the rule has changed since then. (Sejdić and Finci v. Bosnia and Herzegovina for more details).

PS. If you find 3 presidents not fascinating enough, then google for High Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#588

Post by t_mann » Sun, Jun 08, 2025, 2:51 PM UTC

secos wrote: post #580

Atreiden wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get rid of FPTP and the Electoral College that enables a two-party stranglehold. If a vote for a third party wasn't a wasted vote, we could see nuanced parties and politicians emerge that don't have to tow a party line.

Ranked Choice Voting goes a long way to solving this as well.

Does it? Could you explain which mechanism you suggest using? Because the main results from social choice theory about ranked choice voting that come to mind seem to be all about impossibility of fair elections (eg Arrow) or even paradoxical situations such as cyclic preferences (eg Condorcet).

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

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Post by Waterluvian » Sun, Jun 08, 2025, 2:52 PM UTC

slavik81 wrote: post #460

Waterluvian wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Same in Canada. Nowhere is free from corruption, but the magnitude and danger of this problem is uniquely American.

I have lived in Alberta my entire life and that used to be true here. It's different now. There's blatant corruption from our provincial government in the news every few months, but it seems like that's just accepted now. Things are not trending in a good direction in Canada.

Oddly enough Albertans poll Carney as favourably as Poilievre. So I see what you see but in general I do not believe it’s actually that bad.

Plus Alberta has always on again off again thrown middle-child tantrums.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#590

Post by the_af » Sun, Jun 08, 2025, 3:00 PM UTC

rpmisms wrote: post #428

the_af wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's insane because of the implications: Musk was a major contributor to Trump's campaign, and a major advisor, and at the last minute he implies Trump is a pedophile? This means Musk knowingly contributed to get a pedophile elected! He couldn't have learned this at the last minute, he obviously held this ace in his sleeve. This already should "impeach" Musk (informally) in the eyes of his supporters: this is a guy w…

> He couldn't have learned this at the last minute, he obviously held this ace in his sleeve. Why? He could easily have learned this after the election.

Not after the election, since he supported Trump (barring some disagreements) until a few weeks ago. They parted with a hug, just before this blowup.

So are we supposed to believe Musk just found out about the Epstein link, hidden in unreleased documents, in the last few days? It's extremely farfetched.