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Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

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Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#51

Post by modernerd »

whizzter wrote: post #30
dismalaf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chess was far more fun 20+ years ago. Before everyone had a supercomputer-powered chess engine in their hands... While studying openings was a thing, it still felt like there was room for improvisation and tactics. Now playing feels like a chore and more about rote memorization than actually playing a game.

I wonder if it'd be better or worse to scale timelimits? Say once ratings are over 1500, the lowest ranked players rating is used to calculate the time-limits of the game. A player at or below 1500 still has the same times (to let us amateurs consider a bit) but scale so that once players approach 3000 in ranking the speed basically becomes rapid or blitz. If even pros make mistakes at that level, it should get rid o…

Time isn't that much of a handicap. High-level players just have much better pattern recognition and intuition. It's the same reason they adapt faster to weird positions in Fischer Random than lower-rated classical players.

Even with gaps of 200 points the thinking and play speed difference is acute at high levels, for example in Magnus' playful "too weak, too slow" casual blitz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY27lgnPKWI

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#52

Post by [deleted] »

thom wrote: post #34
ale wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that to people like Magnus it goes beyond "the job becoming boring" and his stance alludes directly to Fischer's disillusionment with the game – lacking in genuine and human creativity.

Sure, this is just cause and effect. Doing months of work for a World Championship cycle or slogging through 20 moves of supercomputer prep is boring _because_ it impoverishes the creative side of the game. I'm just saying a lot of people here probably recognise the same pattern between the magic of computing in their youth and the reality of a lot of enterprise tech jobs.

[deleted]

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#53

Post by MagnumOpus »

neom wrote: post #48
thom wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and that's exactly what's happened. It's also happened in various sports as we've optimised strategies there. The argument is just that the sum of all these marginal gains is a worse spectacle and less fun for practitioners. And so those practitioners propose other formats like Fischer Random or shorter time controls to rebalance things.

Less fun for the players who lose because they don't like that way of playing? If you enjoy that way of play, winning would be a lot of fun I'd suspect? He created a new way of playing I read? His strengths (calculation?) matter most, his weakness (willingness to grind opening theory) is neutralized, nobody else can gain the preparation advantages that were starting to threaten his dominance? What is "pure chess"? Th…

Nearly no player enjoys the grind of memorising opening theory. But every high level player has to do months of it because every other player does months of it. It is a negative-sum equilibrium for them. Prep can be neutralised with prep but no chess player got into the game because they enjoy it.

So any variation that eliminates the need for preparation is a gain for both the winner and the loser.

And Magnus Carlsen is not a sore loser, he can both out-prep and out-calculate anyone in the world; hence the credibility of him suggesting that classical is not fun is higher than anyone else’s - because they could be called sore losers…

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#54

Post by neom »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #53
neom wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less fun for the players who lose because they don't like that way of playing? If you enjoy that way of play, winning would be a lot of fun I'd suspect? He created a new way of playing I read? His strengths (calculation?) matter most, his weakness (willingness to grind opening theory) is neutralized, nobody else can gain the preparation advantages that were starting to threaten his dominance? What is "pure chess"? Th…

Nearly no player enjoys the grind of memorising opening theory. But every high level player has to do months of it because every other player does months of it. It is a negative-sum equilibrium for them. Prep can be neutralised with prep but no chess player got into the game because they enjoy it. So any variation that eliminates the need for preparation is a gain for both the winner and the loser. And Magnus Carlsen…

To be clear: the sore loser guy I was calling was the guy who invented is his own chess style, not Magnus! I would have thought most players got deep into the game because they enjoy winning, I like playing the games I win anyway, but the games I play and win are always zero sum strategy games that require a lot of research. The NBA is like the most research and prep filled strategic zero sum game right now I think, people seem to still love watching and playing basketball.

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#55

Post by thom »

mcv wrote: post #42
ale wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that to people like Magnus it goes beyond "the job becoming boring" and his stance alludes directly to Fischer's disillusionment with the game – lacking in genuine and human creativity.

That's exactly why Magnus is now championing Free Style Chess, originally promoted by Fischer: you randomize the starting position of the pieces, which makes traditional opening theory useless. That cuts away a lot of the memorization and introduces a lot of new creativity. It's not entirely surprising that both of these world champions saw that as a way to keep the game interesting. Something else that Magnus someti…

Including his recent "Berlin regret" against Caruana (which was more about bringing a position back into boring territory than trying for chaos, admittedly).

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#56

Post by thom »

neom wrote: post #54
MagnumOpus wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly no player enjoys the grind of memorising opening theory. But every high level player has to do months of it because every other player does months of it. It is a negative-sum equilibrium for them. Prep can be neutralised with prep but no chess player got into the game because they enjoy it. So any variation that eliminates the need for preparation is a gain for both the winner and the loser. And Magnus Carlsen…

To be clear: the sore loser guy I was calling was the guy who invented is his own chess style, not Magnus! I would have thought most players got deep into the game because they enjoy winning, I like playing the games I win anyway, but the games I play and win are always zero sum strategy games that require a lot of research. The NBA is like the most research and prep filled strategic zero sum game right now I think,…

To be clear myself: I work in sports analytics, I have chosen my side of history and I'm happy with it, but there are plenty of people who _don't_ like modern basketball. There are also plenty of people who don't enjoy the increasingly conservative tactics in the Premier League in soccer etc. I don't think there's any harm in having empathy for those points of view. Either way, perhaps we can agree there are different layers of preparation: one is attending to a specific problem in front of you and putting in the work to solve it. Another is more pure practice so that you can problem solve in the face of emergent situations in-game. Some people find the former very satisfying, some people the latter. Some people are lucky to excel at, and enjoy, both.

What's your game of choice, out of interest? I personally love Magic: the Gathering because it is a brilliant balance of preparation ahead of time, whilst rewarding quick thinking in game (with a fair dose of variance).

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#57

Post by neom »

thom wrote: post #56
neom wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear: the sore loser guy I was calling was the guy who invented is his own chess style, not Magnus! I would have thought most players got deep into the game because they enjoy winning, I like playing the games I win anyway, but the games I play and win are always zero sum strategy games that require a lot of research. The NBA is like the most research and prep filled strategic zero sum game right now I think,…

To be clear myself: I work in sports analytics, I have chosen my side of history and I'm happy with it, but there are plenty of people who _don't_ like modern basketball. There are also plenty of people who don't enjoy the increasingly conservative tactics in the Premier League in soccer etc. I don't think there's any harm in having empathy for those points of view. Either way, perhaps we can agree there are differen…

I think we CAN agree on that!!! 1000% I was just annoyed at that guy when I read about him because it just seemed like he didn't want to spend the time up front, and I actually get it, but that's what it takes to play at the world class level I think? Business is mine. Love it to death, not for everyone and not everyone likes to play it the way I do, especially not those I play against, but I love to play business as a strategic zero sum game, I spend a lot of time studying it, practicing it, researching my plays etc. And to your point, many many people who like to play business hate modern business as it's all research grind at this point. (outside of HN and some youtube, it's how I spend almost all my time)

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#58

Post by automatic6131 »

mcv wrote: post #44
fracus wrote: post #7

As a casual spectator of chess tournament streams, I find speed chess to be much more enjoyable to watch. It isn't fun when the players aren't making mistakes. Classical chess feels like F1 racing where the work is done before the match with very little passing and timed chess feels like a derby rally with a lot of bumping and grinding. Just way more fun to watch.

I remember Michael Schumacher just riding one perfect lap after another. He'd always qualify as first, start ahead, ride his perfect laps, and nobody would ever overtake him. It's impressive, but boring to watch.

Good thing you didn't watch any F1 in 2023. It was the schumi era, but even worse.

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#59

Post by thom »

neom wrote: post #57
thom wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear myself: I work in sports analytics, I have chosen my side of history and I'm happy with it, but there are plenty of people who _don't_ like modern basketball. There are also plenty of people who don't enjoy the increasingly conservative tactics in the Premier League in soccer etc. I don't think there's any harm in having empathy for those points of view. Either way, perhaps we can agree there are differen…

I think we CAN agree on that!!! 1000% I was just annoyed at that guy when I read about him because it just seemed like he didn't want to spend the time up front, and I actually get it, but that's what it takes to play at the world class level I think? Business is mine. Love it to death, not for everyone and not everyone likes to play it the way I do, especially not those I play against, but I love to play business as…

It's hard to defend Fischer because he was a massive weirdo. Magnus has had far more skin in the game long term though, so I'm generally willing to hear him out.

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#60

Post by mellosouls »

genewitch wrote: post #36
mellosouls wrote: post #22

Old news tbh. Why do you think the current classical champion isn't Magnus? He's long said he's bored with it; the recent Gukesh slam-the-board viral moment has just resurfaced his frustration with it.

Didnt slam the board from what I saw, just the table, like in a cop show. And then nearly immediately stuck his hand out to shake in congratulation.

Yeah I didn't see it as negative either, passion and apology, it was actually a memorable moment overall including Gukesh reaction.
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