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Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

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Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#41

Post by usrbinbash »

The core problem is, that chess is essentially a solved game now.

There is no human that can outplay the top chess algorithms. This commodization of top skill, means everyone can afford to play against, and learn from, an entity that is above human skill.

Once this point is achieved, the skill focus dramatically shifts: The better player is the one who can hold and query more data learned from the above-human-skill entity in his human brain. Which, don't get me wrong, is still a beyond-impressive skill at the level of top players, but its not what people really enjoy or mean when they talk about "Chess".

In a very general way, this is a problem that afflicts not just Chess, but all solves games where players have complete information about the game state.

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#42

Post by mcv »

ale wrote: post #18
thom wrote: post #16

I think everyone here can probably sympathise when a job stops being about the bits you actually enjoy or are good at. I have no doubt Magnus is the best ever, but the vast majority of the effort in classical chess is spent away from the board. Slogging through an opponent and their team’s computer driven opening prep just isn’t super fun and probably isn’t why most people fall in love with chess. Anyone who has gone…

I believe that to people like Magnus it goes beyond "the job becoming boring" and his stance alludes directly to Fischer's disillusionment with the game – lacking in genuine and human creativity.

That's exactly why Magnus is now championing Free Style Chess, originally promoted by Fischer: you randomize the starting position of the pieces, which makes traditional opening theory useless. That cuts away a lot of the memorization and introduces a lot of new creativity.

It's not entirely surprising that both of these world champions saw that as a way to keep the game interesting.

Something else that Magnus sometimes does, even against fellow grandmasters, is play a completely ridiculous opening that's obviously bad. But more importantly, it's different, and all the existing opening theory goes out the window.

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#43

Post by matsemann »

usrbinbash wrote: post #41

The core problem is, that chess is essentially a solved game now. There is no human that can outplay the top chess algorithms. This commodization of top skill, means everyone can afford to play against, and learn from, an entity that is above human skill. Once this point is achieved, the skill focus dramatically shifts: The better player is the one who can hold and query more data learned from the above-human-skill e…

I think this is a wrong take. Sure, opening preparation is important, especially in matches (like the World Championship), but once you're out of prep it's not "just a memory game". Magnus is known for squeezing victories out of dead equal end game positions, not because of memory (they're all new positions) but because of intuition and accuracy.

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#44

Post by mcv »

fracus wrote: post #7

As a casual spectator of chess tournament streams, I find speed chess to be much more enjoyable to watch. It isn't fun when the players aren't making mistakes. Classical chess feels like F1 racing where the work is done before the match with very little passing and timed chess feels like a derby rally with a lot of bumping and grinding. Just way more fun to watch.

I remember Michael Schumacher just riding one perfect lap after another. He'd always qualify as first, start ahead, ride his perfect laps, and nobody would ever overtake him. It's impressive, but boring to watch.

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#46

Post by thom »

neom wrote: post #39
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he was annoyed that Chess is a strategic zero sum game? No, he's complaining about the depth of the decision tree at the start of the game.

I understand, but isn't the opening decision tree depth IS the zero sum nature playing out?? the depth of the opening decision tree exactly what you'd expect in a zero sum strategic game? In any highly competitive zero sum environment (poker, business, etc.), players will inevitably explore and optimize every available edge, ESPECIALLY preparation? That was the fun of it I thought? Any arms race in opening theory is…

Yes and that's exactly what's happened. It's also happened in various sports as we've optimised strategies there. The argument is just that the sum of all these marginal gains is a worse spectacle and less fun for practitioners. And so those practitioners propose other formats like Fischer Random or shorter time controls to rebalance things.

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#48

Post by neom »

thom wrote: post #46
neom wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand, but isn't the opening decision tree depth IS the zero sum nature playing out?? the depth of the opening decision tree exactly what you'd expect in a zero sum strategic game? In any highly competitive zero sum environment (poker, business, etc.), players will inevitably explore and optimize every available edge, ESPECIALLY preparation? That was the fun of it I thought? Any arms race in opening theory is…

Yes and that's exactly what's happened. It's also happened in various sports as we've optimised strategies there. The argument is just that the sum of all these marginal gains is a worse spectacle and less fun for practitioners. And so those practitioners propose other formats like Fischer Random or shorter time controls to rebalance things.

Less fun for the players who lose because they don't like that way of playing? If you enjoy that way of play, winning would be a lot of fun I'd suspect? He created a new way of playing I read? His strengths (calculation?) matter most, his weakness (willingness to grind opening theory) is neutralized, nobody else can gain the preparation advantages that were starting to threaten his dominance? What is "pure chess"? The more I read about this guy the more I feel he's both... a bit lazy and a sore loser?

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#49

Post by matsemann »

ngc248 wrote: post #31
Etheryte wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget that Magnus didn't lose his world champion title, he gave it up willingly after holding the title from 2013 to 2021. All those years where everyone else is focusing specifically on how to defeat him and still coming short. He's talked about this at length in interviews, mostly it just became incredibly boring.

Wow .. you know how to put a positive spin on him losing

He didn't lose the title by losing. He decided not to defend it and retired from playing WC matches while still being the champion.

Re: Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess

#50

Post by matsemann »

stef25 wrote: post #25
eterm wrote: post #5

It's hard for some of the very best when they're no longer at their peak. Don't get me wrong, Magnus is still world #1 for a reason, but he used to be at a level where no-one could even scratch him. Now he has to fight much harder for victories, and he's not enjoying that. It's hard to determine how much is down to that factor, how much is how he feels over not being world champion anymore, and how much is a financia…

> Now he has to fight much harder for victories Did he get worse or did the others get better ?

It's hard to gauge, because ratings between different years (pools) can't really be compared. But I'd say he has declined a bit, but no one else has really stepped up in the meantime. Gukesh and some are on their way, but for the last decade Magnus has been far above everyone else, and now that they're closer to him it's not really any new development from existing players.
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