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How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

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Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#141

Post by lotharbot »

jajko wrote: post #137
lotharbot wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "it made a break for it along the long side of the house and was visibly shocked when my runner of a fiance ran it down and cut it off" I still remember the look on her face when I got to the corner before her. She looked at me like "what is this terrifying new creature?" as she stumbled backwards looking for a way to escape something faster than her. By the time she'd decided on a course of action, someone else (I…

World suddenly seems much smaller

FWIW it's not accidental that I see my wife's HN comments. I joined shortly after her and I have a bookmark for her profile just because I love to see what she writes. But it is fun when occasionally I reply to something she's written and it takes others half of the comment before they figure out that we're connected.

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#143

Post by kstrauser »

3cats-in-a-coat wrote: post #142
kstrauser wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this person IRL, and I'm certain it's not.

Prove it with SQL.

  DO $$
  BEGIN
      ASSERT (
          SELECT
              COUNT(1)
          FROM
              friends JOIN posters ON friends.id = posters.id
          WHERE
              posters.username = 'devoutsalsa'
      ) = 1,
      'He''s in there, I swear it!';
  END;
  $$;

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#144

Post by Dove »

throwanem wrote: post #140
Dove wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in college, I once walked down a sidewalk that had been taken over by geese. Twenty or thirty big geese, sat down on the ground, who didn't even bother to get up on their feet I as I passed by. I wondered how they knew I wouldn't kick them, as I easly could have, and I concluded they had figured out that polite humans would just walk around them. Which I did. I've seen the similar behavior from the ducks a…

Geese have more than one reason to be confident around humans. Don't cross them.

Oh, I don't know. They seem like a lot more "honk" than "bonk". ;)

I get that they have a lot of aggression and deterrence going for them. But in a fight between a goose and a human, the human is mostly risking bites and bruises while the goose is risking death.

I put them in a similar category of threat as scorpions. Of course I don't want to fight -- getting hurt is inconvenient. But if we do fight, I'm not really concerned about which of us is going to win.

Sure, humans should worry about crazy geese. Geese have a lot more reason to worry about crazy humans!

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#145

Post by throwanem »

Dove wrote: post #144
throwanem wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geese have more than one reason to be confident around humans. Don't cross them.

Oh, I don't know. They seem like a lot more "honk" than "bonk". ;) I get that they have a lot of aggression and deterrence going for them. But in a fight between a goose and a human, the human is mostly risking bites and bruises while the goose is risking death. I put them in a similar category of threat as scorpions. Of course I don't want to fight -- getting hurt is inconvenient. But if we do fight, I'm not really…

They have a whole lot of violence going for them too, when they decide they need to use it, and invariably also a considerable predominance in numbers. You're thinking about this like you imagine you'd be able to stay on your feet, I can tell. Maybe you're the kickboxer you'd need to be for that. If not, you are dreaming, and as with losing any fight, once they get you down it is "everything to play for."

There's not a wasp on Earth I need to be afraid of, just friends I've met already and those not yet. I've hosted them in my kitchen, on my porch, been in the midst of a hundred drunk baldfaced yellowjackets and not only had nothing to fear but I knew it, not because they could not hurt me - I'm not so foolish as to imagine myself immune to their weapons! - but because I know how easy it is not to make them decide that they need to use those weapons on me.

I am very careful to walk small around geese and swans at all times, lest I inadvertently give cause to treat me as a threat. You'll do what you like, of course. No business of mine what you think of your chances. I hope the birds keep not taking you too seriously, and that you never frighten a gosling or God forbid a cygnet.

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#146

Post by _pktm_ »

devoutsalsa wrote: post #134
_pktm_ wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would dearly love to see that ad; any chance you still have it or could more or less reconstruct it?

I was looking for it in my email, but I think it's long gone.

Thanks for looking! It just sounded like the kind of clever I love.

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#147

Post by Dove »

throwanem wrote: post #145
Dove wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I don't know. They seem like a lot more "honk" than "bonk". ;) I get that they have a lot of aggression and deterrence going for them. But in a fight between a goose and a human, the human is mostly risking bites and bruises while the goose is risking death. I put them in a similar category of threat as scorpions. Of course I don't want to fight -- getting hurt is inconvenient. But if we do fight, I'm not really…

They have a whole lot of violence going for them too, when they decide they need to use it, and invariably also a considerable predominance in numbers. You're thinking about this like you imagine you'd be able to stay on your feet, I can tell. Maybe you're the kickboxer you'd need to be for that. If not, you are dreaming, and as with losing any fight, once they get you down it is "everything to play for." There's not…

To be sure, I agree that wild animals, even small ones, should be treated with respect and given space. I did not mean to imply that humans should go around picking fights with geese. Anything can happen in a fight, and I certainly agree with you that fighting a goose without a compelling reason would be imprudent. And at any rate, it would be unkind. You can be stronger than something without mistreating it. I don't mean my assessment of the danger humans and geese pose to each other as a sort of challenge -- it's just what I frankly think on the topic. Either way, of course we should respect and be kind to geese.

Where we stand on the respective odds of different humans versus different geese in different arenas, it's actually orthogonal to my original point -- that different groups of geese vary in their courage around humans, and that there are extreme outliers who are doing a lot more than "cutting it close" -- they're betting the humans will give them space. Or perhaps I saw something rare and was simply channelling Snow White that day. ;)

The more general point is that animal behavior need not always be thought of as the solution to an optimization problem. Whether you believe that's true or not in an ultimate sense, in an immediate sense, it is obvious that their personalities and experience come into play too, and that sometimes they make bad decisions.

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#148

Post by lotharbot »

Dove wrote: post #147
throwanem wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a whole lot of violence going for them too, when they decide they need to use it, and invariably also a considerable predominance in numbers. You're thinking about this like you imagine you'd be able to stay on your feet, I can tell. Maybe you're the kickboxer you'd need to be for that. If not, you are dreaming, and as with losing any fight, once they get you down it is "everything to play for." There's not…

To be sure, I agree that wild animals, even small ones, should be treated with respect and given space. I did not mean to imply that humans should go around picking fights with geese. Anything can happen in a fight, and I certainly agree with you that fighting a goose without a compelling reason would be imprudent. And at any rate, it would be unkind. You can be stronger than something without mistreating it. I don't…

that said, the respective odds of humans vs geese are not even remotely close. People sometimes get mild injuries from geese, and on rare occasions significant injuries, most often from losing their footing and hitting the ground hard. Whereas a human with even the slightest bit of knowledge and who isn't squeamish could easily end the lives of many geese in rapid succession.

Geese aren't confident because of some sort of rational assessment that they can put up a good fight against a human. Geese are confident because as a general rule, humans don't pick fights with them, and it's therefore safe enough for the group to hang around in places where humans are present at short distances.

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#149

Post by throwanem »

lotharbot wrote: post #148
Dove wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be sure, I agree that wild animals, even small ones, should be treated with respect and given space. I did not mean to imply that humans should go around picking fights with geese. Anything can happen in a fight, and I certainly agree with you that fighting a goose without a compelling reason would be imprudent. And at any rate, it would be unkind. You can be stronger than something without mistreating it. I don't…

that said, the respective odds of humans vs geese are not even remotely close. People sometimes get mild injuries from geese, and on rare occasions significant injuries, most often from losing their footing and hitting the ground hard. Whereas a human with even the slightest bit of knowledge and who isn't squeamish could easily end the lives of many geese in rapid succession. Geese aren't confident because of some so…

Good grief, the two of you are impossible. Enjoy your mutual self-reinforcement.

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#150

Post by lotharbot »

throwanem wrote: post #149
lotharbot wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that said, the respective odds of humans vs geese are not even remotely close. People sometimes get mild injuries from geese, and on rare occasions significant injuries, most often from losing their footing and hitting the ground hard. Whereas a human with even the slightest bit of knowledge and who isn't squeamish could easily end the lives of many geese in rapid succession. Geese aren't confident because of some so…

Good grief, the two of you are impossible. Enjoy your mutual self-reinforcement.

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