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How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

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Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#131

I once wrote a personal’s ad in SQL on Craigslist, back when they had that section. A DBA replied and asked if I wanted hawking. She had a Cooper’s hawk. I met her at a commercial park in a Saturday morning. She was driving a Honda CRV, the hawk was in the front passenger seat, and I hopped into the back seat. She started driving and spotted some crows. The hawk saw them as well. Wearing a “don’t kill me either your…

I would dearly love to see that ad; any chance you still have it or could more or less reconstruct it?

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#132
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a hard time squaring away the image of grey gloomy London also being overrun with colourful tropical looking birds, I had to google it and see.

Here are some pictures taken out of my home office window too: https://m.galaxybound.com/@vidar/114256153547342202 And a short walk from mine: https://m.galaxybound.com/@vidar/114582595390607406 They're everywhere at this point.

Those are fantastic photos!

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#133
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see pigeons and sparrows dodge cars by inches, too. For that matter I do the same myself! Sparrows hawk insects out of the air, and I believe starlings also. Predicting motion would need to be second nature, I think. Like skillfully catching a ball, but much more so and between your teeth...

I once threw a tennis ball straight up, just as a bird happened to be flying past, it rolled right and dodged it by a cm.

Because I was inverted.

[coughs] Bullshit.

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#134
post #131

I once wrote a personal’s ad in SQL on Craigslist, back when they had that section. A DBA replied and asked if I wanted hawking. She had a Cooper’s hawk. I met her at a commercial park in a Saturday morning. She was driving a Honda CRV, the hawk was in the front passenger seat, and I hopped into the back seat. She started driving and spotted some crows. The hawk saw them as well. Wearing a “don’t kill me either your…

I would dearly love to see that ad; any chance you still have it or could more or less reconstruct it?

I was looking for it in my email, but I think it's long gone.

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#135
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there is survivor bias there, of course; you don't see the ones that didn't learn to dodge...

But it makes you wonder why they cut it that close. What benefit they get from it. I can think of several plausible reasons but none that is self-evidently true.

When I was in college, I once walked down a sidewalk that had been taken over by geese. Twenty or thirty big geese, sat down on the ground, who didn't even bother to get up on their feet I as I passed by. I wondered how they knew I wouldn't kick them, as I easly could have, and I concluded they had figured out that polite humans would just walk around them. Which I did.

I've seen the similar behavior from the ducks and geese in my neighborhood. Not as extreme, but sometimes I'm out for a walk, and they'll keep a wary eye on me, but will be content with the situation at 6-10 feet away, and won't actually take off unless I try to chase them. I don't think it's so much that they're "cutting it close" as that they're justifiably confident that humans are too slow to catch them at that distance and generally don't even try. But on the other hand, different groups of them seem to have different distances they're comfortable with. It's not like they've all solved the same optimization problem to three decimal places - some are confident and some are wary.

Of course, there are lots of stories of animals who got overly familiar with humans right up until the humans surprised them. As a funny example, I remember one time a cat that had grown up around my not-very-athletic family escaped the house and had to be brought back inside. At one point, it made a break for it along the long side of the house and was visibly shocked when my runner of a fiance ran it down and cut it off. This wasn't its first time running from us, but it had never run from him before, and it clearly didn't think humans could be that fast.

I don't think animals optimize as hard for benefit in everything as biology might lead you to believe. They build experience. They make mistakes. They're very cautious in new situations, but they can also be confident to the point of cocky if they think they know what you can't do. There's lots and lots of videos of cocky animals guessing wrong. It makes sense to me that maybe every individual animal isn't prudently optimizing hard for its own survival so much as that the group of them, with different temperaments, try different things and sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't and maybe there's a balance between weeding out dumb ideas and retaining the capacity to try things.

I think the idea that animals are always optimizing for survival and that everything must be for some benefit is misleading anyway. I mean, in an ultimate sense, you could say the same thing about humans, that they must always be optimizing for survival and reproduction, and whether or not that's true, it's definitely not true in a simple and obvious way on the level of day-to-day activities. We do a lot of dangerous and dumb and non-productive stuff. I don't think animals are different.

In fact, it makes sense to me to leave some reserve capacity. If surviving in good times takes all your time and energy, what are you going to do in hard times? Therefore animals typically have a lot of time for goofing off, and that certainly seems to me like what they're doing most of the time. They would similarly have room for trying stupid things and taking unnecessary risks.

A favorite video on the topic: https://youtu.be/UezzQSUwIgo

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#136
post #135
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it makes you wonder why they cut it that close. What benefit they get from it. I can think of several plausible reasons but none that is self-evidently true.

When I was in college, I once walked down a sidewalk that had been taken over by geese. Twenty or thirty big geese, sat down on the ground, who didn't even bother to get up on their feet I as I passed by. I wondered how they knew I wouldn't kick them, as I easly could have, and I concluded they had figured out that polite humans would just walk around them. Which I did. I've seen the similar behavior from the ducks a…

> "it made a break for it along the long side of the house and was visibly shocked when my runner of a fiance ran it down and cut it off"

I still remember the look on her face when I got to the corner before her. She looked at me like "what is this terrifying new creature?" as she stumbled backwards looking for a way to escape something faster than her. By the time she'd decided on a course of action, someone else (I think your brother) had grabbed her from behind.

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#137
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in college, I once walked down a sidewalk that had been taken over by geese. Twenty or thirty big geese, sat down on the ground, who didn't even bother to get up on their feet I as I passed by. I wondered how they knew I wouldn't kick them, as I easly could have, and I concluded they had figured out that polite humans would just walk around them. Which I did. I've seen the similar behavior from the ducks a…

> "it made a break for it along the long side of the house and was visibly shocked when my runner of a fiance ran it down and cut it off" I still remember the look on her face when I got to the corner before her. She looked at me like "what is this terrifying new creature?" as she stumbled backwards looking for a way to escape something faster than her. By the time she'd decided on a course of action, someone else (I…

World suddenly seems much smaller

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#138
post #13

> Cooper’s hawk is on a rather short list of bird of prey species that have successfully adapted to life in cities. A city is a difficult and very dangerous habitat for any bird, but particularly for a large raptor specializing in live prey: you have to avoid windows, cars, utility wires, and countless other dangers while catching something to eat every day. Peregrine falcons adapted quite well, and they're much more…

In big Swiss cities, I believe its a red kite thats a common sight. I mean really common, always some of them up in skies in central Zurich, Lausanne or Geneva.

It feels surreal in best way possible, I come from eastern Europe and cities back home are always a mix of crows, pigeons and little birds, mostly sprigs and sparrows. Birds of prey - thats stuff for wilderness only.

One more thing to adapt to, not complaining at all though. To be clear - these are not megacities, but still sizeable enough to expect wilderness was driven away to mountains which are never too far here, especially for birds.

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#139

I once wrote a personal’s ad in SQL on Craigslist, back when they had that section. A DBA replied and asked if I wanted hawking. She had a Cooper’s hawk. I met her at a commercial park in a Saturday morning. She was driving a Honda CRV, the hawk was in the front passenger seat, and I hopped into the back seat. She started driving and spotted some crows. The hawk saw them as well. Wearing a “don’t kill me either your…

And this, kids, is a Markov chain.

I know this person IRL, and I'm certain it's not.

Re: How a hawk learned to use traffic signals to hunt more successfully

#140
post #135
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it makes you wonder why they cut it that close. What benefit they get from it. I can think of several plausible reasons but none that is self-evidently true.

When I was in college, I once walked down a sidewalk that had been taken over by geese. Twenty or thirty big geese, sat down on the ground, who didn't even bother to get up on their feet I as I passed by. I wondered how they knew I wouldn't kick them, as I easly could have, and I concluded they had figured out that polite humans would just walk around them. Which I did. I've seen the similar behavior from the ducks a…

Geese have more than one reason to be confident around humans. Don't cross them.
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