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US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

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Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think tariffs being foreign policy gives the president full control over them because foreign policy is presidents responsibility. Tariffs have this duality between being foreign policy and budget. So I don’t have issue with Congress delegating some of the tariffs power to the executive in some circumstances.

You have this backwards. IEEPA gives the president the authority to use tariffs as a way to achieve a foreign policy goal. What's the foreign policy goal of the blanket tariffs across every country? Hint: There isn't one. Its stated goals are revenue generation (Congress's job) and domestic economic development (not foreign policy)

I’m not arguing Trumps use of tariffs was legal (in fact I’m of an opinion it’s obviously not). Just arguing there are cases where executive have rights to set tariffs and it does fall under foreign policy in those cases.

As of blanket tariffs across all countries not being foreign policy I tend to disagree, it’s a policy of protectionism. I just don’t think this particular foreign policy falls under executive oversight, and should originate in Congress.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#532
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former libertarian I have a hard time squaring that philosophically with not saving most of your dislike for the people attacking habeus corpus, the rule of law, ignoring judicial rulings, etc. There is plenty to dislike about the Democrats but this is a completely new level of assault on core libertarian principles.

Oh for sure, I've gone as far as trying to get people to change their votes to avoid what we're currently putting up with. But you can't argue that each party paves the way for the other's abuses. Consider the average age of congress and the amount of power the executive branch now holds.

We do need more reforms on unchecked power, but in general this boils down to a clear hierarchy of failure where the primary criticism of the Democratic Party is that they didn’t do more to stop the outright crimes committed by the Republican Party. Neither is laudable but they’re not equivalent.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#533
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like most things in life, tarifs can be used well, or used badly. I've yet to see a good use of tariffs.

The US has (has?) a huge tarriff, something like 200%, on Chinese EV's. This in theory would be good because it gives American manufacturers a chance to catch up and giving them a huge advantadge for selling to American customers. in practice, it didn't work because the US really can't decide where it wants to go with EV's. Fighting over standards, some trying to keep holding things back to sell ICE vehicles, etc. In…

> This in theory would be good because it gives American manufacturers a chance to catch up and giving them a huge advantadge for selling to American customers.

That's the tired old 'infant industry argument'. It's just as bad now as it always has been. Compare also Brazil's ill-fated attempt at creating a home-grown computer industry.

> in practice, it didn't work because the US really can't decide where it wants to go with EV's. Fighting over standards, some trying to keep holding things back to sell ICE vehicles, etc.

I'm not sure who you mean by 'the US'? Producers and consumers of EVs should make their choices.

> Inflation also didn't help, so a lot of cars just blew up in cost.

Inflation is a general rise of the price level. If both input costs and prices you can charge to customers go up in proportion, inflation doesn't make a difference. Just like moving from metres to yards doesn't make the distance between London and Paris larger.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#534
post #482
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like most things in life, tarifs can be used well, or used badly. I've yet to see a good use of tariffs.

The most common one is protecting defense-related industries: for example, things like steel, weapons, and automakers are protected in most countries which have them because in the event of a war governments want to have domestic industrial capacity. Microprocessors have gotten a lot of attention here and I think software isn’t far behind, too. You might not agree with that politically but I think the logic is defens…

The government could directly pay for domestic industrial capacity, if they want that. Recipients would get money for capacity, not for actual output. (And no tariffs would be necessary.)

Below is a sketch of a keyhole solution to this problem, that would be cheaper than tariffs and cause less disruption to the overall economy:

Recipients could prove that they have capacity either directly by just pointing to their output. Or if they want to claim standby capacity and want to get paid for that one as well, there would be randomised drills every so often where the government asks industry to produce a large quantity of the relevant items on short notice. Anyone who fails would forfeit a huge bond.

To give more details: suppose we want to make sure there's enough capacity to produce one million artillery shells per year. The government would auction off the capacity obligations to the lowest bidders. Companies that already produce the relevant items anyway would presumably have lower costs in fulfilling these obligations, thus they would be the primary bidders. But there might be some companies who operate purely on standby and don't keep a production running.

Being subject to a randomised production drill would be a huge expense, even if the government pays for the output, because of all the fixed costs you have in actually turning on unused capacity, even if only for a short time. But if the drills are truly randomised, insurance companies would really love to insure against them to spread out the load. Insurance companies could also insure against failing the challenge, and that would turn the insurers into private sector inspectors, because they'll want to make sure they don't undercharge companies for the risk of failing to meet their obligated capacity.

(See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_bond for why randomised risks that are independent of the state of the general economy are so beloved by investors.)

If there's not much domestic production, then keeping standby capacity would be more expensive for the companies and thus for the government. Conversely, paying for standby capacity is a subsidy for the fixed costs of the relevant industries. (However it's a very targeted subsidies, because it goes to the lowest cost bidder. It's not sprinkled indiscriminately like a watering can.)

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About defense related tariffs: putting tariffs on your closed allies like Canada and the rest of NATO doesn't make any sense. Steel produced in Canada is as good as steel produced in the US when it comes to defense. (Actually, it's a bit better in some respects, because Canadian steel workers don't have nearly as much political clout in the US as American workers and unions, thus the administration can't be blackmailed and coerced by them as easily.)

Even worse: the US administration allegedly wants to pivot to containing PR China and protecting Taiwan. Putting a 32% tariffs on Taiwan itself and 24% on key regional ally Japan is rather counterproductive.

But I think we both agree that Trump's tariffs were and are stupid, and we are discussing the best case for tariffs here.

So in the best case, it would still be silly to put defense-motivated tariffs on your closest allies.

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Another addendum: the mechanism described in the first part might not work so well for software, because it's not standardised and has practically only fixed costs, no variable costs.

However, you could address that with other customised policy. Eg requiring open source software (especially when it's bought from overseas), and looking for specialised mechanisms for locals to demonstrate maintenance skills on standby or so.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#535

I wonder if this means businesses can request the courts order the government to repay their unconstitutionally levied duties - especially when it meant it basically destroyed their ability to do business.

I still can't find evidence of anyone that has actually paid tariffs - nothing seems to be 3x more expensive compared to before the tariffs supposedly kicked in.

Why would retail prices triple? Tariffs are on wholesale price.

Prices are definitely higher for products that didn't have a lot of inventory already in warehouses (mostly new models of higher priced goods, DJI, Lenovo, etc.) - that is when they're being sold at all. Quite a few products are simply out of stock now.

For cheaper things where there's still warehouses full of them, prices remain the same.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#536
post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.ft.com/content/aac26993-8be0-499f-bc08-9a59ed7f4...

This is as “knee deep” as his 200 deals that were “made” a month ago. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/25/trump-200-trade-dea...

The FT is reporting it.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#537
post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The acts give him the power to enact tariffs under certain conditions Right, but the “condition” in the law is that the President first makes a “finding” that other countries have engaged in unfair treatment. The president only needs to convince the court the finding has been made. But whether a trade deficit results from trade barriers or something else is a decision that Congress has delegated to the President to…

The phrasing is "finds a fact " (emphasis mine), not "makes a finding". They need to convince the court that what they found is a fact, which means that it needs to actually reflect reality.

That’s not how judicial review works. Even in the ordinary agency context when you’re talking about domestic issues rather than foreign policy, courts defer to fact findings of agencies.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#538
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are so dead wrong I don't even know where to start. Gerrymandering doesn't affect the presidential election? Surveys show how everyone would have voted? Do you even hear yourself?

The presidential election depends on where the borders of each state are, and the population of each state as determined by the decennial census. Gerrymandering does not affect either of those things. (I otherwise 100% agree that Republicans engage in various forms of voter suppression and disenfranchisement. Not sure what fantasy world GP lives in where they don't.)

Setting rules and regulations for elections isn’t “voter suppression and disenfranchisement.” That’s just activist propaganda to delegitimization elections. David Shor, a top Democrat voter researcher, conducted millions of interviews after the 2024 election and found that if everyone had voted, Trump would’ve won by almost 5 points: https://www.vox.com/politics/403364/tik-tok-young-voters-202...

The intense high quality polling that’s been done since Trump won in 2016 has completely dismantled the notion of “voter suppression.” It’s the left’s version of illegal immigrants voting.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, they need to argue that the foreign countries' practice imposes a disadvantage in fact on the commerce of the USA compared with the commerce of any foreign country? They already have argued that; it was headlined in Trump's first announcements.

Any business impacted by the tariffs will have standing to go to federal court and argue that trade practices accepted for a century by legislatures and administrations of both parties do not constitute "unequal impositions" under the intended meaning of the statute.

They'd have to argue something other than that. There could be a standing regulation that says "Ships carrying any American goods must pay 30% higher docking fees"; if that had been accepted for a century, it would still be a slam dunk case of "unequal impositions".

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#540
post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is as “knee deep” as his 200 deals that were “made” a month ago. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/25/trump-200-trade-dea...

The FT is reporting it.

Your bigger problem here is "accomplishing foreign policy objectives using tariffs" is not an authority Congress has delegated to the executive branch, and, in fact, this cuts against his argument (that he is instead responding to an "economic emergency", despite the performance of our economy and the fact that he's responding to conditions that we have been working with for generations).

You have somehow put yourself into a position of having to argue that an enumerated power of Congress actually belongs wholly to the executive so long as the executive has some constitutionally legitimizing purpose for the application of that power. I think you must be doing this for sport, just to see if you can wriggle out from the contradictions.

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