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US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

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481–490 of 568 posts

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently up to about 40% support them, depending on the poll. [1] That 40% seems absolutely unshakeable in their support. No matter what happens, that group will support it. And 40% is pretty close to half. [1] https://www.progressivepolicy.org/polling-u-s-public-is-agai...

It's not like people are just closing their eyes and trusting in leader. I'm part of that 40% (and probably substantially more given contemporary pollsters difficulty in reaching people like me [1]), and I think my rationale is quite sound. The fundamental reason is that we are creating an unsustainable system. When Germany chose to limit imports of Russian gas, they wrecked their economy. Many people, blinded by hin…

> including the US most obviously, has excesses of dependencies on other countries

Do we have excessive dependencies on other countries (Madagascar) for vanilla? How about for chocolate? Are tariffs supposed to stimulate our own chocolate and vanilla production? How does that work if you don't have the right climate for these things? I suppose we could grow vanilla in greenhouses, but would that really be worthwhile when we can just import it from places where it does grow?

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#482
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like most things in life, tarifs can be used well, or used badly. Canada's Dairy Tariff is specifically designed to protect a specific local industry, which exists, is of national interest to keep, and which could come under threat from cheap alternatives imported from abroad. It's specific, targeted, and serves a valuable purpose. They have been in place a long time, and provide a stable trading environment making t…

> Like most things in life, tarifs can be used well, or used badly. I've yet to see a good use of tariffs.

The most common one is protecting defense-related industries: for example, things like steel, weapons, and automakers are protected in most countries which have them because in the event of a war governments want to have domestic industrial capacity. Microprocessors have gotten a lot of attention here and I think software isn’t far behind, too.

You might not agree with that politically but I think the logic is defensible and discussion should be around the bigger picture of what else is done to support key industries or the rate structure rather than whether it should exist conceptually.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#483
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's true, then all criminal law in the US is foreign policy because the existence of laws restricts people's decision to visit the US to commit crimes. Hell we don't even need to go that far afield: your logic implies all taxes are foreign policy, as they all affect foreign trade.

The policies you mention don’t target particular countries, and this is where the difference lies in my opinion. The part of the policies which is countries specific is in fact foreign policy.

By that logic, a president wanting to tariff the whole world could just specify some small country as not included, and then it be foreign policy.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#484
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He doesn’t have to convince the courts of that. [..] As long as the President is plausibly exercising a foreign policy power Congress gave him... Sure he does. The various tariff-related acts don't give the president carte blanche to set tariffs whenever he pleases. The acts give him the power to enact tariffs under certain conditions. If the president cannot convince a court that "having a trade deficit" falls und…

> The acts give him the power to enact tariffs under certain conditions Right, but the “condition” in the law is that the President first makes a “finding” that other countries have engaged in unfair treatment. The president only needs to convince the court the finding has been made. But whether a trade deficit results from trade barriers or something else is a decision that Congress has delegated to the President to…

The phrasing is "finds a fact" (emphasis mine), not "makes a finding". They need to convince the court that what they found is a fact, which means that it needs to actually reflect reality.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#485

I'm not a lawyer or even close to it, but why wouldn't the trump admin use the tariff act of 1930? quote: "Whenever the President shall find as a fact that any foreign country places any burden or disadvantage upon the commerce of the United States by any of the unequal impositions or discriminations aforesaid, he shall, when he finds that the public interest will be served thereby, by proclamation specify and declar…

He would have to convince the courts that I don't like having a trade deficit with anyone somehow means our trading partners are "placing a burden or disadvantage upon the commerce of the United States by any of the unequal impositions or discriminations aforesaid"

"Whenever the president shall find" seems to establish Annoying Orange as the sole arbiter as to whether that satisfies the burden/disadvantage clause. This admin has successfully argued much shakier positions than that in court. Hell, he once argued successfully that he broke the law and the law prescribes a punishment but that punishment doesn't apply because the law doesn't say who should administer it.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#486
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chevron decision told Congress to do its fucking job and stop delegating it to the for-profit entities the regulations are supposed to apply to, unchecked. The story of how it made it to the supreme court is a good one, about having to pay an inspector to ride on every fishing trip... I don't see how this diminishes congressional power, unless you consider delegate count a sign of power.

This is a conservative talking point to justify stripping Congress of power. The whole reason Chevron came into existence is because it's impossible for Congress to pass explicit regulations for every little thing as soon as it's needed. So agencies were instead given broad legislative mandates like "keep the water clean" or "manage fish stocks" because it was impossible to enumerate every circumstance. So for 40 yea…

>> The whole reason Chevron came into existence is because it's impossible for Congress to pass explicit regulations for every little thing as soon as it's needed. So agencies were instead given broad legislative mandates like "keep the water clean" or "manage fish stocks" because it was impossible to enumerate every circumstance.

This misunderstands Chevron and the effect of its abandonment. Chevron stood for the proposition that the executive branch could generally interpret laws without judicial review (subject to a minimal standard which was nearly always met). What this meant in practice was that any agency could change its view on what the law means (and therefore change what the law is because courts were generally required to accept the new interpretation) whenever it wanted and that new view was binding law. This undermines two core principles of the American system: separation of powers (the judiciary says what the law is) and the rule of law (laws should be applied equally and consistently).

Eliminating Chevron returns us to the proper state of the law: the executive branch proposes a reading of the law, the other side proposes another, and an independent court considers both and states what the law is. And that’s the law going forward. It cannot be changed absent legislation. Congress passes a law, the judiciary says what the law is, and the executive executes it. If the executive wants to enforce a different law then it must get the legislative branch to pass that different law.

This is not a conservative talking point, it’s a talking point for anyone that thinks the President is not a king. It just seems like a conservative talking point to you because it was overturned during the Biden administration. Recall that Chevron came to be because of a Reagan administration interpretation.

Consider what the state of reality would be if Chevron remained good law today under the Trump administration. Trump’s interpretation of a statute would be what the statute says.

For example, 8 USC 1401 provides that “The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth: (g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date;”

Do you really want the Trump administration to be able to what any of the ambiguous terms mean in this provision? What do you think Trump’s interpretation of the “geographical limits of the United States” is? What about what “honorable service” means?

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He would have to convince the courts that I don't like having a trade deficit with anyone somehow means our trading partners are "placing a burden or disadvantage upon the commerce of the United States by any of the unequal impositions or discriminations aforesaid" Why? If the GP quoted the law correctly and the plain-language reading is also the legal one, it's all about what the president finds as fact. I don't s…

"Finds as fact" isn't the same thing as imagines/thinks/claims. Facts are still different than opinions, that statute doesn't give him unchecked power to declare any crazy idea as fact.

Facts are facts, indeed, but bact finding is determining what the facts of the situation are, and this law makes the president the one who finds the facts. This doesn't let him declare squares to be circles, but it does pretty clearly let him declare more or less arbitrarily that a trade agreement is, in fact, disadvantageous.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is this how checks and balances is supposed to work? Yes, check and balances assume a conservative* theory of government in which politicians should be restrained and changes should be require overwhelming support to implement. *- not conservative in the sense of political ideology, but conservative in the sense of attempting to conserve.

White House deputy chief of staff Stephen Miller said to X, "The judicial coup is out of control." This is starting to sound like `Wool`

Do illegal thing, court says it is illegal, blame court for enforcing laws and constitution like that isn't their job.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As your first link says, this doesn't give them sweeping immunity. The intent of the policy (again, discussed in the first page but more later) is to protect the government from doing reasonable things. Sweeping immunity obviously doesn't exist, as evidenced by the court ruling this thread is about. The government gets sued all the time and frequently they have to pay damages. Remember, the US was explicitly set up t…

Based on my citations, I believe there is an argument to be made that government and presidential immunity might prevent any civil claims from sticking, but I would be pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong by the outcome of a legal action. If the tariffs are determined to be unlawful (after exhaustion of any appeals), one would think recourse would be possible, but only the outcome of legal proceedings would confir…

There's an argument to be made but not one that will universally hold.

What that means for tariffs, will IANAL (pretty sure that's most of us here too). So I don't know. But I do know the gov can't be sued for damages and isn't immune from consequences. That's all I was saying

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#490
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congress didn't delegate tariff power to the president absolutely. The executive branch still needs to make the case that the tariffs are being put into place for specific reasons that are covered by the specific ways that Congress delegated tariff power. The court here seems to have decided the executive has not done that.

Further, Congress can't delegate tariff power to the President absolutely; any such delegation would be unconstitutional.

Isn’t it actually more accurate to say that they _can_ delegate power and while unconstitutional, it remains in effect until challenged by the judicial branch?
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