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Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#701

Post by alexey-salmin »

Varqu wrote: post #669
m-schuetz wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You save for a state pension the same way you save for state health care - not at all. The current working people pay for the current retired people, and this only works so long as there are significantly more working than retired people. Advantage of this system: You dont need to be afraid of not having saved enough money if you end up living too long. Disadtvantage: Thid only works if there are substantially more w…

Then perhaps it should be said openly, that this is an elderly tax, not a pension and it should be just kept to the minimum, allowing people to save more of their own income for their own private pension. Currently, it's the worst of both worlds: you get taxed quite a significant portion of your income, and then, in the middle of the game, someone changes the rules and tells you to play longer in order to get the pri…

> Then perhaps it should be said openly, that this is an elderly tax, not a pension and it should be just kept to the minimum, allowing people to save more of their own income for their own private pension.

This doesn't fundamentally change the equation. Whether you save pension points or cash or ETFs it's just a coupon for your share of the economy of the future. It's a promise that the future generation will share some of their income with you.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#702

Post by AStonesThrow »

simongray wrote: post #698
vitus wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1371 hours Out of curiosity, what drove that shift? Shorter workweek, fewer hours per day, drastically more vacation, or some combination of the above? Based on a 40-hour workweek, this would be 34 workweeks. Adding on 2-3 weeks worth of paid holidays, that leaves the equivalent of 15-16 weeks of vacation a year? I know my coworkers in Europe get more vacation than we do, but somehow I don't think it's that much mo…

Full-time in Denmark is 37 hours/week and most people have around 6 weeks of vacation/year (the legal minimum is 5). Some people will be working part-time, bringing the total hours worked down, so the numbers make sense to me.

In the United States, full-time hours are in a range.

Part-time workers are often capped at 29 hours per week, due to tax considerations, such as the Affordable Care Act and other benefits. 30 hours is where the "full-time" label is applied there.

A wage-earning (non-exempt) worker must be paid overtime when they exceed full-time, which is typically a 40-hour maximum. Overtime pay may be "time and a half" or "double time" in certain circumstances.

Dolly Parton's feminist anthem "9 to 5" always mystified me: that's already 40 hours! Don't you stop to eat lunch? But that is the standard idiom for a "normal [office] job" in the States. Sometimes we refer to "banker's hours" which has the negative connotation that the worker never ever works outside that schedule.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#703

Post by timewizard »

wkat4242 wrote: post #668
timewizard wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "every man for himself" 401(k) thing It allows you to do that. In most cases there are various life index funds that operate the way a traditional pension scheme would and is likely the default option in any employer plan. You can additionally add your own money outside of your paycheck and you can use the money inside of the fund to make your own investments. You are also allowed to take personal loans against you…

I prefer the old system because it's simpler (the last thing I want to do is manage investments) and it doesn't run out like a personal pension does. You just get the monthly amount as long as you live. Because it's a group scheme. Some people are luckier than others. Unfortunately Holland has become very neoliberal and everything collective or social is frowned upon. That's really why they changed it.

> the last thing I want to do is manage investments

You are not required to. You can set your portfolio to be 100% mutual funds. Several exist. They have names like "Fidelity Freedom Blend 2045" or the "Blackrock Lifepath 2045." Your provider almost certainly has a default in this category they will pick for you if you signal no other intent.

> Because it's a group scheme

A 401k can be group or individual. It's your money in a special status that's allowed to be used for certain purposes before taxes. The proceeds are tax free under certain circumstances. It's entirely up to you what you do with that money including just stashing it into a fund and forgetting about it.

> and everything collective or social is frowned upon

There are advantages and disadvantages. Populations and circumstances change over time. With the world working to phase out petroleum it should be no surprise that Holland needs to adjust.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#704

Post by FranzFerdiNaN »

alexey-salmin wrote: post #699
amag wrote: post #409

This is truly sad. As a Swede I fear my country may follow suite. The retirement age in Sweden used to be 65 and now it's 67. Looking at older people around me, most lead a much less active life after 75. So, if we were lucky we used to have some 10 good years of doing whatever we wanted before old age and age-related diseases start affecting us so much we become limited to a much smaller world. But now we have maybe…

> I think if you've put in 40-45 years for the man, you should be allowed to have some good 10 years for yourself. Travel, play golf, cross a continent in a camper or climb a mountain. Not unless you've raised 2 more workers to pick up the shovel while you're playing golf. You could, of course, rely on your neighbor's kids through taxes and pensions but when your neighbor thinks the same it becomes problematic. On th…

Just let two immigrants in to replace me. Much cheaper and easier than raising kids.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#705

Post by adastra22 »

mchanson wrote: post #638
jltsiren wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing sad about this. Mandatory pensions are not a vacation sponsored by the government but a way to provide for those who can't provide for themselves. If you were born in the 70s, you should have known for most of your adult life that your normal retirement age is likely going to be around 70. The demographic situation is not new, the solutions have been discussed extensively since at least the 90s, and…

Part of the deal with progress should be that we all start working less. If not is the progress all that attractive? Improved health so we can all work more is kinda stupid.

> Part of the deal with progress should be that we all start working less.

Why? When was that the deal? I’m genuinely confused.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#706

Post by jdkee »

amag wrote: post #409

This is truly sad. As a Swede I fear my country may follow suite. The retirement age in Sweden used to be 65 and now it's 67. Looking at older people around me, most lead a much less active life after 75. So, if we were lucky we used to have some 10 good years of doing whatever we wanted before old age and age-related diseases start affecting us so much we become limited to a much smaller world. But now we have maybe…

They have to pay for the immigrant who leaches off the system.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#707

Post by FranzFerdiNaN »

vitus wrote: post #677
jltsiren wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been happening, but not as quickly as earlier generations expected. In 1970, the average labor force participant (employed or unemployed) in Denmark worked 1845 hours. By 2022, the number had fallen to 1371 hours. The numbers are similar for most West European countries but not for East Europe or the US.

> 1371 hours Out of curiosity, what drove that shift? Shorter workweek, fewer hours per day, drastically more vacation, or some combination of the above? Based on a 40-hour workweek, this would be 34 workweeks. Adding on 2-3 weeks worth of paid holidays, that leaves the equivalent of 15-16 weeks of vacation a year? I know my coworkers in Europe get more vacation than we do, but somehow I don't think it's that much mo…

Don’t forget the expansion of the labour pool by women entering the workforce, who work more often part time. And more men work part time too, especially without a woman at home doing all chores like cleaning and cooking.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#708

Post by jdkee »

FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #704
alexey-salmin wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think if you've put in 40-45 years for the man, you should be allowed to have some good 10 years for yourself. Travel, play golf, cross a continent in a camper or climb a mountain. Not unless you've raised 2 more workers to pick up the shovel while you're playing golf. You could, of course, rely on your neighbor's kids through taxes and pensions but when your neighbor thinks the same it becomes problematic. On th…

Just let two immigrants in to replace me. Much cheaper and easier than raising kids.

Ethnic replacement.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#709

Post by xlii »

FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #704
alexey-salmin wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think if you've put in 40-45 years for the man, you should be allowed to have some good 10 years for yourself. Travel, play golf, cross a continent in a camper or climb a mountain. Not unless you've raised 2 more workers to pick up the shovel while you're playing golf. You could, of course, rely on your neighbor's kids through taxes and pensions but when your neighbor thinks the same it becomes problematic. On th…

Just let two immigrants in to replace me. Much cheaper and easier than raising kids.

I see this twofold: what happens if net outcome is negative. Who would pay for it?

The same argument could be made for children, but a counterpoint could be made that given family history outcome is more stable than with unknown immigrant.

On the other hand, there is VERY interesting idea: personal immigration responsibility. Just as „mail bride” look for immigrants you’d be willing to sponsor in exchange for retirement.

Probably there are 5 million problems but would put personal stake for sponsor. Limit to 2 per person and people would do a lot of research as their retirement would depend on it. The country might also gain because I’d expect that people would look for high-value individuals that would maximize their chance for well being.

Finally, this could be used to revive drying out regions: bind this to a country/state/administrative region and that could help shaping it in the future.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#710

Post by jdkee »

wkat4242 wrote: post #559
dralley wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans need a constant supply of resources and shelter to survive. There is no "system" which avoids this inconvenient fact. In the absence of any "system" at all, you would still need to constantly work for survival - and in fact you'd just die as soon as you were no longer able to do so due to illness or injury much less old age. In other words if there were no "system" there would be no such concept as "retirement…

That's true, I would never ever consider moving to the US for that reason alone. Our vacations are very generous and I always struggle to use them all up. I get about a month and a half effectively (if I take them all consecutively with weekends in between)

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