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CAPTCHAs are over (in ticketing)

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Re: CAPTCHAs are over (in ticketing)

#151

Post by bsder »

EGreg wrote: post #146
bsder wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it will definitely fix the scalpers problem Nobody wants to fix the scalpers problem because, to the Ticketmaster monopoly, scalpers aren't a problem . The Ticketmaster monopoly values known, consistent, derisked revenue over possible lottery ticket windfalls with the possibility of complete wipeout. Scalpers do exactly that. Scalpers are only a problem to fans. And scalpers are only a problem online because th…

Let’s put busting the ticketmaster monopoly to the side for a second, and look at the issue regardless of players If you want to remove scalpers, just make sure tickets are non-transferrable and run an auction for price discovery. I built it on the blockchain years ago.

You can't put Ticketmaster aside precisely because Ticketmaster likes scalpers. They don't want to shut down scalpers. Hell, for all I know, Ticketmaster might actually BE the scalpers (talk about paranoia ... but, hey, vertical integration for the win).

Consequently, even if there are "technical" solutions to scalpers, the socio-political aspects prevent the solution from being deployed.

Re: CAPTCHAs are over (in ticketing)

#152

Post by sanity »

Retr0id wrote: post #84
sanity wrote: post #24

A few months back I built a cryptographic alternative to CAPTCHAs called Ghost Keys[1] that uses a small donation as proof-of-humanity. For donating you get an anonymous keypair that works across services without repeated CAPTCHAs. The economic friction doesn't scale for bot operators, and donations fund our non-profit[2]. [1] https://freenet.org/ghostkey/ [2] https://freenet.org/

In the event ticket situation, how does this change the economics compared to just adding $1 to the ticket price? (or whatever your minimum donation threshold is)

It would add $1 to the ticket price, the goal is more to replace CAPTCHAs (which cost essentially nothing to defeat these days), but you're right that it wouldn't be a silver bullet in the ticket scalping scenario.

Re: CAPTCHAs are over (in ticketing)

#153

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

stavros wrote: post #134
kassner wrote: post #119

I can’t claim I’m the first one to think about this, but every time Ticketmaster shows up on HN I keep coming back to this idea: Sell the tickets with regressive price based on time. Sales starts say 2 months before event, initial price is truly exorbitant, say one million dollars. Price decreases linearly down to zero (or true cost price). At any point, people can see current price and the seats left. Now every pote…

The scalper problem is a mispricing problem: Scalpers are just arbitrageurs because ticket prices are artificially very low. If you want to fix that, you need to ask yourself "why are ticket prices artificially very low?" first. The answer probably isn't "artists/venues like leaving money on the table".

I think a significant portion is that artists like leaving money on the table. being perceived as greedy can cause reputational harm significantly greater than the increased ticket revenues that the market will bear.

Re: CAPTCHAs are over (in ticketing)

#154

Post by abetusk »

gruez wrote: post #104
abetusk wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you handle the following conditions? * I buy a ticket for a friend (maybe as a present) but don't actually want to go to the concert * I buy more than one ticket for a group of people (I'll be attending the concert) * I buy a ticket but have to cancel at the last minute and want to give it to a friend * I don't have an easily available government ID (maybe I never got a drivers license, maybe my drivers lic…

>How would you handle the following conditions? It doesn't, but that's fine, because it's the cost of preventing scalpers. Everyone just accepts that you can't buy a flight ticket as a present, for instance.

This is maybe the answer, but I'd like to at least acknowledge that this is what's being proposed: Buying tickets for shows has the same security requirements and domestic and international flights.

Re: CAPTCHAs are over (in ticketing)

#155

Post by tripplyons »

yread wrote: post #56

There will be a concert for 750th anniversary of Amsterdam in June (held on the highway ring around the town which will be closed). Tickets were free, sold out in 5 mins, immediately available from scalpers for 200 euros. https://nos.nl/artikel/2568164-chaos-bij-ticketuitgifte-voor...

This is a great example of the problem with ticket prices. The problem is that the price they were originally sold at was not a fair market price.

Re: CAPTCHAs are over (in ticketing)

#156

Post by alterom »

teeray wrote: post #57
markasoftware wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how does this prevent the scalper communicating with the buyer to demand an out-of-band payment?

If all tickets are the same price, then any buyer-seller combination will do. I believe the seller doesn’t get to choose the buyer and both are anonymous. No way to coordinate such an out-of-band payment.

They don't even have to have the same price if the seller just effectively returns the ticket back to the system.

Then it's up for grabs.

There's no guarantee for the buyer that an out-of-band payment will get them the ticket (someone else can get it), and there's nothing that forces them to send an extra payment once they do get the ticket.

Re: CAPTCHAs are over (in ticketing)

#157

Post by alterom »

markasoftware wrote: post #37
teeray wrote: post #33

> The naive economic solution to the problem would be raising ticket prices step by step until it is no longer attractive for scalpers to resell your ticket You can also just do like The Cure did and destroy the secondary market entirely: you can sell tickets through the platform and only for what you paid for them.

how does this prevent the scalper communicating with the buyer to demand an out-of-band payment?

They can demand all they want, but they can't guarantee any way of getting the ticket to the person that send a payment... which makes it a bit of a tall demand.

Re: CAPTCHAs are over (in ticketing)

#158

Post by kylecordes »

My usual gripe:

Somehow it is unethical for person/organization/etc putting on an event to make more money on tickets in hot demand.

...but ethical for opportunistic arbitrageurs to make that money.

This suggests a highly misguided notion of ethics.

Re: CAPTCHAs are over (in ticketing)

#159

Post by abetusk »

Symbiote wrote: post #117
abetusk wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you handle the following conditions? * I buy a ticket for a friend (maybe as a present) but don't actually want to go to the concert * I buy more than one ticket for a group of people (I'll be attending the concert) * I buy a ticket but have to cancel at the last minute and want to give it to a friend * I don't have an easily available government ID (maybe I never got a drivers license, maybe my drivers lic…

I think I've only had this once for a concert I've attended, but generally: > I buy a ticket for a friend (maybe as a present) but don't actually want to go to the concert You'd need to transfer the ticket to them electronically, which is possible on all the ticket selling sites that support these restrictions. > I buy more than one ticket for a group of people (I'll be attending the concert) One person can buy up to…

Ticketing organizations have solved these problems some of which, I'm sure, do exactly as you propose, so it's not like it's an insurmountable problem but, besides wanting to hear a proposal, my point was that these are common tasks that are not as clear cut to solve as one might imagine.

To go into more detail, you're proposing training staff to recognize a valid ID, both from all 50 USA states and international passports, including any other official ID. This increases costs for consumers and vendors in addition to creating friction for entry. This also precludes people from attending that don't have ID or have trouble finding ID that isn't recognized by the venue.

I've seen some online vendors do ID validation but, from personal experience, I've found them to be invasive and have a high error rate.

All these methods have a high friction and might not really address the core issue of scalping.

Someone else proposed that these events are tantamount to international or domestic flights, where the expectation is that ID requirements are invasive and security is high. Maybe that's just the answer. If you want to see Taylor swift, have your passport ready, only purchase a ticket for yourself and go through high levels of security to gain entrance into the venue.

Re: CAPTCHAs are over (in ticketing)

#160

Post by Nursie »

Symbiote wrote: post #112
teeray wrote: post #33

> The naive economic solution to the problem would be raising ticket prices step by step until it is no longer attractive for scalpers to resell your ticket You can also just do like The Cure did and destroy the secondary market entirely: you can sell tickets through the platform and only for what you paid for them.

This is the law in Denmark, and I think Ireland and several other European countries. Tickets must not be sold for more than the original price. Ticketmaster etc are still happy to take part in the action: their resale system still charges a second set of ticket fees for a resale, though the sale price is limited to the purchase price.

Australia too, though you are be allowed to sell at face value plus 10% here in Western Australia. YMMV by state.
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