Live data from Hacker News

Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

old.reddit.com

571–580 of 580 posts

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#571
post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The obvious case in which you would be "left behind" is the one in which LLM usage is hard, and you cannot otherwise do the hard things that LLMs are doing (or you can do them, but much slower and/or to a lower standard of quality.)

Sure. Although all of the hard things that I need to do I have a history of doing fast and to high standards. Unless we're talking about hard things that I have up til now not been able to do. But do LLMs help with that in general? This scenario breaks out of the hypothetical and the assertive and into the realm of the testable. Provide for me the person who can use LLMs in a way that is hard but they are good at in…

> Provide for me the person who can use LLMs in a way that is hard but they are good at in order to do things which are hard but which they are currently bad at.

A PM using LLM to develop software product without DEV?

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#572
post #571
post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Although all of the hard things that I need to do I have a history of doing fast and to high standards. Unless we're talking about hard things that I have up til now not been able to do. But do LLMs help with that in general? This scenario breaks out of the hypothetical and the assertive and into the realm of the testable. Provide for me the person who can use LLMs in a way that is hard but they are good at in…

> Provide for me the person who can use LLMs in a way that is hard but they are good at in order to do things which are hard but which they are currently bad at. A PM using LLM to develop software product without DEV?

This sounds like a hypothetical person, unless you have a particular PM who is willing to donate some time and their LLM account to run the experiment for us.

Also Im picking the problem. I have a few in mind but I would want to get the background of the person running the experiment first to ensure that the problem is something that we can expect to be hard for the person.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#573
post #526
post #494

I recently, meaning hours ago, had this delightful experience watching the Eric of Google, which everybody love, including he's extra curricular girl friend and wife, talking about AI. He seemed to believe AI is under-hyped after tried it out himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id4YRO7G0wE He also said in the video: > I brought a rocket company because it was like interesting. And it's an area that I'm not an ex…

> has this great ability to Impress An Idiot Literally the killer app of AI.

Just wait until v2...it will probably get you laid in the local singles bar.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've encountered LLM generated comments that don't even reflect what the code is doing, or, worse, subtly describe the code inaccurately. The most insidious disenchanting code I've ever seen has been exactly of this sort, and it's getting produced by the boatload daily now.

I really don't understand what is going on. I try to, I read the papers, the threads, I think about it. But I can't figure this out. How can it be that people expect that pumping more energy into closed systems could do anything else than raise entropy? Because that's what it is. You attach GPU farms to your code base and make them pump code into it? You're pumping energy into a closed system. The result cannot be ot…

Of course! But just look at all the pretty lights all that energy is flashing.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#575

I’m all for AI “writing” large swaths of code, vibe coding, etc. But I think it’s better for everyone if human ownership is central to the process. Like I vibe coded it. I will fix it if it breaks. I am on call for it at 3AM. And don’t even get started on the safety issues if you don’t have clear human responsibility. The history of engineering disasters is riddled with unclear lines of responsibility.

Spoken like a man who has never had to write a payroll check in his life.

Of course human ownership is preferable, but it's also crazy expensive and since the point of all corporations is to "increase shareholder value" (not "gainfully employ workers"), well then all your talk of responsibility-here-and-there is quite touching but absolutely misses the point.

Economics is driving this bus, not quality and most certainly not responsibility.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.NET has major releases every year. How is that slow for a programming platform/framework?

Go has a six month release cycle. Rust releases a new stable every six weeks.

Six weeks works for a young language like Rust. .NET releases also include application development frameworks in addition to the language itself.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#577
post #5

Interesting that every comment has "Help improve Copilot by leaving feedback using the or buttons" suffix, yet none of the comments received any feedback, either positive or negative. > This seems like it's fixing the symptom rather than the underlying issue? This is also my experience when you haven't setup a proper system prompt to address this for everything an LLM does. Funniest PRs are the ones that "resolves" t…

> I can't imagine how the people who have to deal with this are feeling. It's like you have a junior developer except they don't even read what you're telling them, and have 0 agency to understand what they're actually doing. That comparison is awful. I work with quite a few Junior developers and they can be competent. Certainly don't make the silly mistakes that LLMs do, don't need nearly as much handholding, and te…

> It's like you have a senior phd level intelligence developer except they don't even read what you're telling them, and have 0 agency to understand what they're actually doing.

Is that better?

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#578
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you miss the "except" in his sentence? He was making the point this is worse than junior devs for all reasons listed.

I was agreeing with him, by saying that the comparison is awful. Not sure how it can be read otherwise.

You were agreeing with him by saying his comparison was awful?

That doesn't make any sense.

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#579
post #296
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again I don't know what people mean when they say it will get more expensive. This is a wrong way of looking at the issue. Pretty sure cars are more expensive than horse carriage, or that iPhones are/were more expensive than button phones. You can cite so many such examples. Like photocopying machines, or cameras, or wrist watches, or even things like radio, television etc. More importantly, sometimes how you do thin…

This isn’t like those things. You’re comparing physical goods to a token generator. LLMs are being made into another rental extraction system and should be viewed as such.

Physical goods are being converted into a rent extraction system too.

https://grocerynerd.substack.com/p/grocery-update-17-how-gro...

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-s...

Re: Watching AI drive Microsoft employees insane

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a matter of principle I don't use any network which is trained on non-consensual data ripped of its source and license information. Other than that, I don't think this is bad tech, however, this brings another slippery slope. Today it's as you say: > I think this process is intended for fixing papercuts rather than building anything involved. It just isn't good enough yet. After sufficient T somebody will rephrase…

I feel there's a fundamental flaw in this mindset which I probably don't understand enough layers of to explain properly. Maybe it's my thinking here that is fundamentally flawed? Off the top of my head: If we let intellectual property be a fundamental principle the line between idea (that can't be owned) and ip (that can be owned) will eventually devolve into a infinitely complex fractal that nobody can keep track o…

It took longer than I planned, sorry. But here we go:

When you look at proper research, whether from academia or from private corporations, you can always keep track of ideas and intellectual property resulting from these ideas. Ideas are mature into documents, research reports, and proof of concepts. In some cases, you can find the process as Lab Notebooks. These notebooks are kept by respecting a protocol, and they’re more than a collection of ideas. It’s a “brain trail”. Then, you publish or patent these ideas. Ideally both. These artifacts (publications and patents) contain references and citations. As a result, you can track who did what and what came after what invention. In a patent case, you may even need to defend your patent to convince that it’s not the same invention that was patented before. In short, you have a trail. There are no blurry lines there.

The thing is, copyright law and the idea of intellectual property are created by humans for humans. First, I’ll ask this question: If an instructor or academic is not allowed to teach a course without providing references, whether to the book itself or the scientist who invented something, why is a bot allowed? Try citing a piece of a book/publication in a course or paper or research without giving a reference, and you’re officially a fraud, and your whole career is in shambles. Why a bot is allowed to do this, let it be a book or a piece of code? For the second perspective, I’ll ask a pair of questions: 1) How many of the books you have read can be recalled by you exactly, or as a form of distilled summary? 2) For how long can you retain this information without any corruption whatsoever? 3) How many books can you read, understand, summarize, and internalize in an hour? A bot can do thousands without any corruption and without any time limit. As a result, an LLM doesn’t learn; it ingests, stores, and remixes.

A human can’t do that to a book (or any artifact) if its license doesn’t allow it or its creator gives explicit consent. Why can a bot? An LLM is a large stochastic blender that tends to choose correct words due to its weighted graph. A human does it much differently. It reads, understands, and lets that idea cook by mixing with their own experience and other inputs (other people, emotions, experiences, and more) and creates something unique outside the graph. Yet this creation has its limits. No machine can create something more complex than itself. An LLM can never output something more complex than the knowledge encoded in its graph. It might light dark corners, but it can’t expand borders. The asymptotic limit is collective human intelligence, even if you give it tools.

So, yes, the IP law is showing its cracks because it’s designed for humans, not bots. However, I value ethics above everything else. My ethics is not defined by laws but by something much higher. As I replied to someone, “I don’t need to be threatened to be burned for all eternity to be good.” Similarly, I don’t need a law to deem something (un)ethical. If what’s done is against the spirit of humanity, then it’s off-limits for me.

I’d never take something without permission and milk it for my own benefit, esp. if the owner of that thing doesn’t consent. I bought all the software I pirated when I started to earn my own money, and I stopped using software that I couldn’t afford or didn’t want to buy. This is the standard I’m operating at, and I hold all the entities I interact with to that exact standard. Lower than this is unacceptable, so I don’t use LLMs and popular LLMs.

On the other hand, not all AI is the same, and there are other good things that I support, but they are scientific tools, not for consumers directly.

Hope this helps.

Post reply on HN