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Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

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Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#181

Post by reaperducer »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #133
apercu wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While mean wages metrics look great, the cost savings are an illusion because we spend twice as much time communicating and tacking back and forth to the final answer across timezones. compensation consultants dont care about that, they care about mean wage metrics 100% this. What you save in dollars is spent in time. Not just more documentation requirements, not just more meetings, not just changing your schedule t…

> What you save in dollars is spent in time. If you're on salary, that costs nothing to the business, so they don't care until it starts to impact them...

If you're on salary, that costs nothing to the business, so they don't care until it starts to impact them...

It depends on if you work for a good company or not.

Several times a year I have to make a decision about the direction and handling of projects based on how many hours it will take, divided into my salary.

Salaried workers aren't free labor. Wasting their time means they're not doing something more useful, and likely more profitable, for the company.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#182

Post by OutOfHere »

BuckRogers wrote: post #179
OutOfHere wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what does this have to do with a visa worker? Nothing. It's the government that allow lax policies for work visas. The fault here is not the worker's.

I was responding to you. So you tell me. You did not mention H1Bs so I did not address that concern. You asked me about denaturalization and I gave you the answer to that. I'm open to discussing visas if you wish, but I did not imply there was a connection between denaturalization and cancelling visas. These are two distinct avenues for removing excess resources from the American labor pool. The only connection betwe…

When you use the word "our", it's supposed to refer to US citizens. Once a person is a citizen, they are a part of this group. To want to denaturalize anyone means your quest is not rooted in a rational separation of who belongs and who doesn't. Maybe someone will want to denaturalize you and show you the door just the same, so how about that.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#183

Post by nradov »

tpm wrote: post #152
nradov wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever worked in a factory or restaurant or construction job site? I understand that some office environments aren't great for knowledge work but complaints about poor working conditions are a bit overblown.

A bit overblown? I literally could not do my work in the working environment I was supposed to (open space) because of the constant noise from coworkers. That was at a time when ANC technology wasn't very good and I left for this and other reasons.

I find that hard to believe. Some of the mechanical engineers that I know do much of their work out on factory floors that are constantly noisier than any office. And I guarantee that what they're doing is at least as complex and intellectually challenging as anything you've ever done.

I'm all for improved working conditions but some software developers are entirely too precious. What we do isn't special.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#184

Post by nradov »

franktankbank wrote: post #113
nradov wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasing efficiency doesn't necessarily reduce the number of jobs needed. Like the switch from programming in assembly language to high-level languages increased efficiency more than 20% but the number of developer jobs also greatly increased during that period. The demand for software is effectively infinite so in the past efficiency improvements just meant that more software was built.

> The demand for software is effectively infinite Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There's nothing extraordinary about my claims. It's a simple extrapolation of historical trends going back 70+ years.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#185

Post by scotty79 »

entuno wrote: post #109
scotty79 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the solution is the same as it was in previous cases. Extend the education and make it more accessible so you can reach useful skill level before you dirty your hands with commercial work. In the old times 12 year old could have economic utility. Now 26 year old often has none. It might be that with AI you might need to keep learning till 35 before you can usefully contribute to the economy.

Which leads to the obvious question of: who's footing the bill for this? Is the taxpayer going to pay for another five or ten years of education for people? Are the young people expected to borrow hundreds of thousands more for training? Are their parents expected to house and feed them for another decade?

> who's footing the bill for this?

Not who, what. Most of the value in the economy is not produced by humans for a long time already. Most wealth comes from machines. So they need to be footing the bill instead of just lining pockets of people who bought the machines.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#186

Post by tpm »

nradov wrote: post #183
tpm wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit overblown? I literally could not do my work in the working environment I was supposed to (open space) because of the constant noise from coworkers. That was at a time when ANC technology wasn't very good and I left for this and other reasons.

I find that hard to believe. Some of the mechanical engineers that I know do much of their work out on factory floors that are constantly noisier than any office. And I guarantee that what they're doing is at least as complex and intellectually challenging as anything you've ever done. I'm all for improved working conditions but some software developers are entirely too precious . What we do isn't special.

You sound exactly like a manager that would put everyone into a open space and then could not understand why the productivity goes down like a rock. Yeah, people told you and you chose to ignore them.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#187

Post by RicDan »

corp8drone8sf wrote: post #23
RicDan wrote: post #4

Can sort of confirm that. Wiped out is maybe the wrong word - they are more heavily being off-shored right now. Whilst there is some very obvious evaluations going on of replacing juniors with , it's quite obviously not there yet but management level interest is off the charts. We are trying to motion against it as much as we can internally... by arguing that we can use as a good coaching/mentoring support for junior…

))) Wiped out is maybe the wrong word - they are more heavily being off-shored right now. Once the next year of grads come, it is a wipe-out, because you now have multiple years of graduates competing for the same one position. Also, you often dont want damaged goods -- better to hire the fresh grad from this year's batch than a grad from 1 or 2yrs ago who has been unemployed. the market is brutal

No counter point there. It's a real issue, and I don't know how to handle it. There is also an issue of the current world not being in a very investment heavy mood - unless you're talking military...

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#188

Post by RicDan »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #22
RicDan wrote: post #4

Can sort of confirm that. Wiped out is maybe the wrong word - they are more heavily being off-shored right now. Whilst there is some very obvious evaluations going on of replacing juniors with , it's quite obviously not there yet but management level interest is off the charts. We are trying to motion against it as much as we can internally... by arguing that we can use as a good coaching/mentoring support for junior…

Well, in that case, if I may draw a stereotype, there’s a simple solution: “If there’s a data breach, and a significant percentage of your programmers are offshore, penalties double.” We all generally agree here that while some talent is excellent, the majority of companies outsource to the cheapest (or 2nd cheapest, just to be safe) option possible. Turn that into a calculated risk - if you hire a company and their…

We all wish that would be the real world - finally some good pressure to prioritise technical debt and issues. And some heads that would roll.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#189

Post by RicDan »

seemsclear wrote: post #6
RicDan wrote: post #4

Can sort of confirm that. Wiped out is maybe the wrong word - they are more heavily being off-shored right now. Whilst there is some very obvious evaluations going on of replacing juniors with , it's quite obviously not there yet but management level interest is off the charts. We are trying to motion against it as much as we can internally... by arguing that we can use as a good coaching/mentoring support for junior…

The delusion is the public’s belief they can ignore political action and everything will work out for them.

Definitely agree. I blame educational institutions (I know, they can't do much without enough freedom + budget) for not advocating enough to our democratic responsabilities. I do wish we adapted some stuff from early history (Athens to be precise) - democratic participants got a very low base salary, and they also could vote to ban people from democratic participation (and hence the city) whenever they got too power hungry. Seems like a loss of responsibility allows too much incompetence to prevail.

Re: Sorry, grads: Entry-level tech jobs are getting wiped out

#190

Post by BuckRogers »

OutOfHere wrote: post #182
BuckRogers wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding to you. So you tell me. You did not mention H1Bs so I did not address that concern. You asked me about denaturalization and I gave you the answer to that. I'm open to discussing visas if you wish, but I did not imply there was a connection between denaturalization and cancelling visas. These are two distinct avenues for removing excess resources from the American labor pool. The only connection betwe…

When you use the word "our", it's supposed to refer to US citizens. Once a person is a citizen, they are a part of this group. To want to denaturalize anyone means your quest is not rooted in a rational separation of who belongs and who doesn't. Maybe someone will want to denaturalize you and show you the door just the same, so how about that.

You'll have to take up your concerns with a lawyer. See 8 U.S. Code § 1451 - Revocation of naturalization.
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