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Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

nytimes.com

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Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#381

Post by ModernMech »

alaxhn wrote: post #262
therouwboat wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Trump adminstration is so much worse here, they ban stuff based on word lists and kick people with wrong ideas out of the country.

In the hiring process for these institutions, until recently you had to write a "Diversity Statement" which was evaluated as part of the hiring process. This was an attempt to keep people with the "wrong ideas" out of the hiring pool. Similarly the H1B process asks you a long list of questions that you are required to answer "correctly" in order to be admitted. If you fail, you are kicked out. I think the question is…

The point of a diversity statement for the candidate to ruminate on their teaching practices with respect to a diverse classroom, which is a fact of the job rather than a political or ideological matter.

Most people in the course of their job do not closely work with people of diverse backgrounds. People who work at universities will work with people of all backgrounds and abilities. It’s not just about race or gender, but language, mobility, mental disabilities, and so forth. People in roles that deal with so many diverse people need to be able to articulate how in a statement. That’s not unreasonable or political, but just a reality of the job.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#382

Post by ethbr1 »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #354
neilv wrote: post #89

Can someone ELI5 the power networks involved here? I didn't expect to see Harvard getting smacked around or humiliated like this. Between Harvard, Yale, and possibly a few other schools, I thought they had influence throughout government. And that key figures in government were interested in maintaining and benefiting from that influence. And a lot of that influence seemed aligned with national interests. (For exampl…

One explanation might be that the objects of their influence are nested within agencies. Most presidents let the agencies run mostly unsupervised, it seems like. With the agencies now under heavy fire structurally, they may not be able to do what they would normally do to prevent this kind of thing. I think the whole agency model gives the president way more power than they are meant to have. I guess this exists to s…

The intent of agencies was three-fold:

1. As the US grew and the workload required to govern it grew, Congress' ability to directly and quickly manage the country was outpaced. Consequently, agencies served as the grease between Congress' high-level actions/funding and the low-level implementation.

2. Due to the ever-adversarial nature of Congress, it was recognized that most Congresses operated slowly, and consequently didn't have the capacity to micromanage at the level required for direct control.

3. Circa 1900, civil service reform by the then-progressive wing of the Republican party pushed for greater isolation of the expertise that drove good government outcomes (in civil service employees) from politicians (administrators).

The flaw Trump revealed was that the President has too much direct power over the civil service, if he chooses to ignore tradition.

This wasn't always the case, and laws that previously restrained the President's ability to fuck with the civil service were substantially relaxed in the 60s - 80s (?).

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#383

Post by Jensson »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #66

I get flak for hating Republican voters with the general feeling of most people being that voters are not responsible for the officials THEY elected to represent them. I still haven't found a valid argument for why a voter isn't held responsible for the actions of representatives. Especially if the actions would be likely to occur.

> I still haven't found a valid argument for why a voter isn't held responsible for the actions of representatives. Especially if the actions would be likely to occur.

Does that apply to Gaza as well? Or is it just when people you don't like vote?

There is a reason we don't do this, why we didn't punish everyone who voted for Hitler etc.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#385

Post by lenerdenator »

soupfordummies wrote: post #374
neilv wrote: post #89

Can someone ELI5 the power networks involved here? I didn't expect to see Harvard getting smacked around or humiliated like this. Between Harvard, Yale, and possibly a few other schools, I thought they had influence throughout government. And that key figures in government were interested in maintaining and benefiting from that influence. And a lot of that influence seemed aligned with national interests. (For exampl…

It's hard for me to see this as anything more than "they resisted Trump, that pissed him off and now he's further retaliating." Side question I've been wrestling with to whoever feels like commenting: At what point would you look at our current US situation and say "yep, we're now in a dictatorship"

Dictatorships require at least some sort of state monopoly on violence. That's how power ultimately works.

As of now there's no way for the state to enact such a monopoly in the US.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#386

Post by nashashmi »

scandox wrote: post #364
nashashmi wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Your hatred is clouding your judgement. It is very clear that the issue of the protests is being used by an American government to pursue a much broader agenda. Israel and antisemitism are merely the most convenient instrument. But since you are trapped in (charitably) a prejudicial mind bubble you can only see this as further proof of a tiny group of people somehow controlling everything...

You are right that Trump is using the protests to further his agenda! And some are scolding him for doing that!

They want him to only focus on the anti Israel protests instead of also pursuing anti woke policies.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#387

Post by bloomingeek »

dragontamer wrote: post #76
more_corn wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean Harvard will fight back in court. The courts are last bastion. Once the executive branch stops following what the courts order the checks and balances are gone.

How is the Supreme Court's 9-0 decision in favor of returning Garcia working out? The courts have been beaten months ago. We are well into crazy train territory.

We are in a non-constitutional crazy train territory, which will continue unless the right leaning voters do something about it at mid-terms. We're in the beginning of a very dangerous era.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#388

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

scandox wrote: post #364
nashashmi wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Your hatred is clouding your judgement. It is very clear that the issue of the protests is being used by an American government to pursue a much broader agenda. Israel and antisemitism are merely the most convenient instrument. But since you are trapped in (charitably) a prejudicial mind bubble you can only see this as further proof of a tiny group of people somehow controlling everything...

you make a good point regarding pretexts employed with ulterior aims

also, I can think of some more charitable ways to engage with the message in question than to dismiss it with unsubstantiated claims that the messenger is 'trapped in a prejudicial mind bubble', and I bet you are smart and can, too

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#389

Post by bloomingeek »

mmooss wrote: post #234
adamors wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Checks and balances are just words. So yes, they can and will do everything they want.

> Checks and balances are just words. By that logic, Trump's orders are just words. The Trump administration obeys the courts - they push the envelope way too far, but it is still rule of law.

[flagged]

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#390

Post by Animats »

neilv wrote: post #89

Can someone ELI5 the power networks involved here? I didn't expect to see Harvard getting smacked around or humiliated like this. Between Harvard, Yale, and possibly a few other schools, I thought they had influence throughout government. And that key figures in government were interested in maintaining and benefiting from that influence. And a lot of that influence seemed aligned with national interests. (For exampl…

> Can someone elucidate the power networks involved here?

Major players, regarding the Gaza/Hamas issue:

- Harvard itself. The administration, not the faculty or students.

- The US Eastern Establishment, the Ivy League and its graduates. They once ran the US, and still run finance, but are less influential politically than a few decades ago.

- The Netanyahu faction in Israel. Understanding this requires more info about Israeli politics than is worth posting here. Wikipedia has a summary.[1] There are a huge number of factions. Netanyahu leads a coalition. The coalition seems to need an enemy to hold it together.

- MAGA. "Project 2025" is the MAGA playbook. Despite some denials, the Trump administration has mostly been following that playbook.

- Israel's lobby in the US, starting with AIPAC. American Jews as a group average left of center, but the Israel lobby is hard-right.

- Major donors to Harvard. Some are closely associated with the Israel lobby and vocal about it. Others aren't.

- The US courts. Anyone can bring a case to court, and courts have to do something about it.

- Trump.

Minor players:

- Fox News. 23 of Trump's appointees came from Fox News. The MAGA base listens to Fox News.

- The United Nations. Provides some aid, but hasn't been able to do more than that.

- US Congress. Has the real power, but is too divided to do anything with it.

- Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. They're the ones most affected, but lack any real power at this point. It's not even suggested that they be represented in international meetings.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Israel

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