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Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

nytimes.com

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Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#221

Post by ceejayoz »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #215
mperham wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t matter, the damage is done. If you’re an international student, are you going to risk an El Salvador gulag?

[flagged]

Because they accidentally sent at least one person there already?

Who remains there, despite SCOTUS ordering his return? https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf

> Instead of hastening to correct its egregious error, the Government dismissed it as an “oversight.”

> The order properly requires the Government to “facilitate” Abrego Garcia’s release from custody in El Salvador and to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#222

Post by bobbylarrybobby »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #172
dudinax wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has there ever been an empire that committed suicide at the height of power?

All of them. "Height of their power" is a retrospective take.

Doesn't mean their death was by suicide, though.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#223

Post by HEmanZ »

aeternum wrote: post #143
HEmanZ wrote: post #21

I feel US higher education, which brain drains the rest of the world, is easily one of the best strategic advantages it could have for the next 100 years. Let’s throw that all away because learning is liberal.

What is taught matters a lot. Suppose a foreign adversary were able to infiltrate key US higher education institutions and subtly change the curriculum to be pro-communism and avoid STEM subjects.

Suppose a foreign adversary were able to infiltrate the key US institution that determines if higher education institutions have been infiltrated and subtly accuses them of being pro communist?

What if a foreign adversary infiltrates the institution that appoints the individuals who run the institution that determines whether a higher education institution has been infiltrated!?

What if a foreign adversary infiltrates the… !?!

The beauty of a system where many different and independent institutions compete for students and teachers independently, develop and share ideas and technologies, cross examine each other, and collectively build knowledge, is that they don’t have some single point in the system that can be infiltrated, and all have to compete in the arena of ideas.

The closest thing to a single point that can be infiltrated is the federal government, which can be used to put pressure on the whole system from a point of higher power.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#224

Post by criddell »

anonymousDan wrote: post #162
jleyank wrote: post #108

What will the HN crowd do when Y Combinator's banned from foreign participants?

As if the powers that be at YCombinator wouldn't roll over for Trump like all the other tech quislings.

Would you characterize Harvard as rolling over for Trump?

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#226

Post by CamperBob2 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #199
mrtksn wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The action by itself comes as a punishment which imply that this is indeed great resource but because Harvard was a naughty boy means that can't have it. I want to note that when Brexit happened EU citizens had about 2 years period to move to UK and just like that get their full rights there and those with enough years of stay had the right to obtain British citizenship. Streamlined process through scanning your id u…

> I bet you, if this continues for some more time USA will no longer receive the best and the brightest. International students are heavily selected for wealth rather than brightness.

Be that as it may, look at the names on any random research paper or journal article that originates from any randomly-chosen American university, and see what they tell you.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#227

Post by firesteelrain »

achristmascarl wrote: post #25

I wonder what avenues there are for Harvard to challenge this; it looks like the mechanism the Trump Admin used was for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to cancel Harvard's Student and Exchange Visitor Program (SEVP) certification [0] which is managed by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) [1]. Does ICE just have full discretion over SEVP? Can they do this to any school for whatever reason they want? […

Under 8 U.S.C. § 1372, the SEVIS (Student and Exchange Visitor Information System) program requires schools to report data on international students including what DHS has been asking for.

Harvard may argue that DHS’s request was overly broad, lacked due process, or sought information beyond what the law permits.

8 CFR § 214.3(g) and § 214.4(b), which require schools to maintain and furnish records “as required by the Service,” including disciplinary actions and other conduct relevant to maintaining status.

8 CFR § 214.3(l)(2)(iii) allows for withdrawal of certification if a school fails to “provide requested documentation” to DHS.

Not to mention other overly broad immigration laws

But given the laws on the books, DHS has broad authority to take this action.

Not arguing one way or the other just laying out the facts. This could have happened under the prior administration if the law was applied

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#228

Post by alaxhn »

scoofy wrote: post #8

If you are a Republican and didn’t sign up for this, can you please write your representatives about impeachment? This is getting ridiculous. We’d be much better off with a president Vance.

What is the better path forward? Republican voters led by their representative Trump were unhappy about certain policies and events at Ivy league institutions. Voters have the right to feel this way and elect representatives to carry out their views even if this is not how you feel as a feature of democracy. Proxies of the representatives of the voters reached out to a few institutions requesting changes to be made or else face consequences. The institutions said "we are unwilling to make all of the changes that you would like to see because we think they are not reasonable". The administration's response is now to try and hurt these institutions (Harvard for now) by going after their pocketbook.

As someone with some "right-leaning" views I am indeed very sad that the US is losing our edge as an international destination for higher education but I do want to see major reforms at elite institutions. I don't see a good way to accomplish these reforms without being willing to go after institutions in the only way they really care about (hurting the budget). I think we would reach a better place if we could agree to compromises where the universities concede on the "less important points" (e.g. make an earnest effort to drop everything the right calls DEI and reduce the administration to student ratio back to ~1980 levels) while the right agrees to leave funding and privileges in place but if we cannot compromise then we unfortunately end up in a position that is worse for everyone. I suspect most of the left will blame the right for being unable to compromise while most of the right will blame the right but this is kind of the same theme for every major party-aligned disagreement.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#229

Post by thinkcontext »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #104
baggachipz wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's the case, you're an easily-duped sucker of a customer and deserve to lose your money.

[flagged]

> it continues long enough might even result in lower prices for domestic students

International students pay full price so they wind up subsidizing domestic students. Many universities were already predicting strained budgets from fewer international students.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#230

Post by [deleted] »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #66

I get flak for hating Republican voters with the general feeling of most people being that voters are not responsible for the officials THEY elected to represent them. I still haven't found a valid argument for why a voter isn't held responsible for the actions of representatives. Especially if the actions would be likely to occur.

[deleted]
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