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Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

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Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#61

Post by cibyr »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #24
Jiocus wrote: post #10

The author mentions "military grade firewall", as a must have in a vehicle. Genuine question; What's a military grade firewall?

A stupid requirement. Consider this. Almost every car on the road today has an unsecured bus going back to like the 1980s. However you need to actually access the car to do something malicious so the threat vector is zero; since if you have access to the car you can also just cut brakes or put in a pipe bomb. The only reason why this paradigm changes in the EV era is because the insistence on having EVs phone home. N…

The threat is not exactly zero. In some cases, thieves can get physical access to the bus from outside the car, and then inject messages to unlock it, start the engine, and drive away: https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/

Sure someone in that situation could also "just cut brakes or put in a pipe bomb" but car theft is a lot more common than assassination, at least where I live.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#62

Post by SAI_Peregrinus »

Jiocus wrote: post #10

The author mentions "military grade firewall", as a must have in a vehicle. Genuine question; What's a military grade firewall?

A firewall built by the lowest bidder, that barely functions, but is robust to even bored Marines deciding to play with it.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#63

Post by tehjoker »

smartmic wrote: post #60
tehjoker wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aviation standards are the way they are because if you have an engine problem you can’t pull over to the side of the road. But yes, something approximating these for road conditions is a good idea imo. Part of me thinks the reason they are doing an integrated system is a combination of economics and convenience for 3 letter agencies to remotely assassinate ppl.

Having an engine problem on a back road is one thing, having a software-system-integration-what-the-hell problem on a Autobahn at 180 km/h +/- is a different story. And yes, I do not want my family in the car at that moment.

Yea if it affects brakes, acceleration, or steering it's a huge huge problem.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#64

Post by DonHopkins »

cosmicgadget wrote: post #6
tehjoker wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this is exactly the problem. It sounds like turning the car into a platform with changeable parts has caused both organizational and technical problems. To be fair, im still not sold that this is an advancement except maybe in simplifying the number of components. I'd prefer the car to work without "updates" and DLC. Why does my car need a firewall??

It needs two! One to keep engine fires out of the passenger compartment[1] and one to keep unauthorized users or code out of your infotainment and control systems. [1] https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewall_(engine)

All cars and should be equipped with two firewall extinguishers, one for the network and one for the passenger compartment.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#65

Post by gambiting »

calmbonsai wrote: post #59
gambiting wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally yes, but I would buy a car that has no screen at all, just give me a phone holder on the dash.

You might be interested in the Slate truck when it comes out. It's too early to tell, but I like their philosophy.

I mean I have that already, a Volkswagen E-Up that has a cradle for a phone with a USB port behind it for charging. They even have an app that connects to your car directly(through Bluetooth! No fancy subscription based nonsense) and shows you all charging/energy consumption figures.

I just mean I'd totally buy a much higher end car that is like this, I don't need a screen with all the nonsense on it.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#66

Post by dmoy »

odiroot wrote: post #49
FrankWilhoit wrote: post #2

Embedded-systems programming is not taught, and no one is willing to pay for training. The result is that development is outsourced to entities that claim, falsely, to have the knowledge. Eventually the consequences of the fact that they do not have the knowledge surface in an undeniable manner, and the only way to cover is to make a great show of a fresh start. (This affects all industries, not just automotive, but…

I've been taught 8051 programming at my university. But I'm an older Gen Y, this could be going away for all I know.

Embedded programming is definitely still taught... in EE.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#67

Post by bombcar »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #57
gambiting wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally yes, but I would buy a car that has no screen at all, just give me a phone holder on the dash.

Yeah all I want is something that holds the phone and gives it a USB-C port that charges it, lets me play media through it, and lets buttons on the wheel control the phone (volume, next/previous, and programmable go forward/back x seconds buttons). USB-C is so powerful, it can do everything Bluetooth does while charging, but for some reason that's just not an option in a lot of cars? Make it make sense.

It's the latency that kills me. Let alone the stupid "you're an idiot if you let this screen distract and kill you" message that pops up, it seems to take a good 10+ seconds to sync with the phone and "come alive".

This is with USB, too.

I want the car to start and CarPlay to be operational; we have no time to be wasting on whatever formalities software wants to have.

Maybe someday wireless CarPlay could start syncing with the system before you even get to the car, so it's already loaded when you sit down and start.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#68

Post by KerrAvon »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #57
gambiting wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally yes, but I would buy a car that has no screen at all, just give me a phone holder on the dash.

Yeah all I want is something that holds the phone and gives it a USB-C port that charges it, lets me play media through it, and lets buttons on the wheel control the phone (volume, next/previous, and programmable go forward/back x seconds buttons). USB-C is so powerful, it can do everything Bluetooth does while charging, but for some reason that's just not an option in a lot of cars? Make it make sense.

This is what the Slate truck is promising. I won’t buy it without CarPlay, personally, but you can put your money where your mouth is, supposedly.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#69

Post by fn-mote »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #24
Jiocus wrote: post #10

The author mentions "military grade firewall", as a must have in a vehicle. Genuine question; What's a military grade firewall?

A stupid requirement. Consider this. Almost every car on the road today has an unsecured bus going back to like the 1980s. However you need to actually access the car to do something malicious so the threat vector is zero; since if you have access to the car you can also just cut brakes or put in a pipe bomb. The only reason why this paradigm changes in the EV era is because the insistence on having EVs phone home. N…

> Almost every car on the road today has an unsecured bus going back to like the 1980s. However you need to actually access the car to do something malicious

See [1] from 2023, where popping the headlight gives access to the bus. Lack of internal security then gives a way to steal the car.

The threat just isn't the same as the one you are modeling.

Security will come eventually, if only to prevent bad publicity.

[1]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/04/crook...

ETA: Just as the sibling says...

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#70

Post by tonyhart7 »

FrankWilhoit wrote: post #2

Embedded-systems programming is not taught, and no one is willing to pay for training. The result is that development is outsourced to entities that claim, falsely, to have the knowledge. Eventually the consequences of the fact that they do not have the knowledge surface in an undeniable manner, and the only way to cover is to make a great show of a fresh start. (This affects all industries, not just automotive, but…

ok but why tho??? I have a lot of interest in embedded system

can someone tell me if there are any course that taught this??

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