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Stop Using The Cup of Coffee vs. $0.99 Cent App Analogy

joshlehman.com

151–160 of 207 posts

Re: Stop Using The Cup of Coffee vs. $0.99 Cent App Analogy

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an Aussie coffee afficionado, and the best coffee I ever had in London was at Monmouth. No idea of the address, but it was about 5mins walk from the modern art museum, on that side of the Thames, near a food market. As if that'll help... :-)

I'm in the US and you have all really got me curious about the Aussie coffee. I too hate Starbucks and find it quite bitterly me a pot that's been on all day). Unfortunately I just prefer Big Coffees off the shelf brand, but don't know what to try. Just that it's not Starbucks. Is there somewhere that I can order Aussie coffee from and know its actually the coffee you describe and not just branded 'Aussie'?

Sadly the best coffee comes from speciality roasters that only sell it over the counter (or wholesale if you own a cafe in the city), so it's hard to get if you're out of town. A few (like Campos and Cleanskin) will ship within Australia though.

I think it's mainly a freshness thing - after resting for four or five days after roasting, coffee is only at its very best for 10 - 20 days at most (as whole beans).

Re: Stop Using The Cup of Coffee vs. $0.99 Cent App Analogy

#152
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I try a new restaurant and they don't bring my food to the table, I walk out without paying. If the food is horrible, I can send it back. If I pay the bill, I'm acknowledging that I got something of value. I may not decide to go back, but at least I'm not hungry any more. The same applies to your other examples. If the projector malfunctions when I'm watching a movie in a theatre, I get a coupon to come back anoth…

> If the food is horrible, I can send it back. You CAN...but legally, you can't walk out on the bill. Even walking out after ordering is illegal, as I understand it. And if one thing that arrives is terrible, then are you really going to trust that something else will be better? Probably not. So are you really going to walk out without paying? Most people won't, and you would be breaking the law if you did walk out.…

Well, maybe the law would side with the restaurant if it came to that, but it won't, because the last thing a restaurant wants is a customer hauled away in handcuffs while shouting about how terrible the food is.

And when it comes down to it, my beef with the app store isn't a legal issue either. I might be able to sue the developer for breach of contract or fraud or something, but I won't. That's an even worse move than the restaurant calling the cops.

It may be that 24 hours is too long. Or maybe the return policy should only a apply to non-games. I'd hope a return policy would obviate the need for demo versions and so on. I use them whenever possible, but sometimes it's too much of a pain to be worth it. As for reviews... please. They're too easily gamed. All the apps I've been burned by had good ratings and reviews. If they hadn't, I wouldn't have bought them in the first place.

Perhaps the rational thing to do is just buy more apps and accept that it's always a gamble and sometimes you lose. I don't find myself doing it all that often though.

Re: Stop Using The Cup of Coffee vs. $0.99 Cent App Analogy

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been hating Starbucks since 1993 where at my first job at a movie theater we shared a trash compactor with them, and those bastards would never press the button, so you had to stand in the smelly garbage room and wait for it to compress their garbage before you could throw yours in. It would be years before I could actually afford to buy a coffee from there. Now I live in London, and as far as I can tell, all th…

> all the good coffee is made by Aussies Hold on a sec. What about Italians?

Or the Dutch? Or Brazil?!

Re: Stop Using The Cup of Coffee vs. $0.99 Cent App Analogy

#154
> Is There Hope for the Paid App?

Yes, there is. But not on a market where $2 is a premium price. If you want to make a living from software products you should stay away from mobile.

At least it plays out well for Apple who wanted to commoditize software for a long time.

Re: Stop Using The Cup of Coffee vs. $0.99 Cent App Analogy

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it is easy for some to slam Starbucks coffee for taste , the truth is nearly every cafe you go to will have a healthy business - and often perpetual lines - of paying customers. Quality is subjective, and the entire experience Starbucks brings is what the urban masses are looking for. For that matter, take a long road trip, and if you happen to see a Starbucks logo on an exit sign, more often than not you're go…

I don't go on road trips without a significant supply of my concentrated aqueous solution of caffeine and theanine, and my handy concentrated flavoring so that I can make energy drinks on the go. So no, I wouldn't surrender to Starbucks in that scenario. But I realize that my habits are not exactly typical.

Interested. Would you mind sharing your formula?

Re: Stop Using The Cup of Coffee vs. $0.99 Cent App Analogy

#156
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I try a new restaurant and they don't bring my food to the table, I walk out without paying. If the food is horrible, I can send it back. If I pay the bill, I'm acknowledging that I got something of value. I may not decide to go back, but at least I'm not hungry any more. The same applies to your other examples. If the projector malfunctions when I'm watching a movie in a theatre, I get a coupon to come back anoth…

> If the food is horrible, I can send it back. You CAN...but legally, you can't walk out on the bill. Even walking out after ordering is illegal, as I understand it. And if one thing that arrives is terrible, then are you really going to trust that something else will be better? Probably not. So are you really going to walk out without paying? Most people won't, and you would be breaking the law if you did walk out.…

I believe in the UK you can leave what you think the food was worth (down to zero) along with your name and address so the restaurant can take you to small claims court if they wish to dispute the value they provided.

I have heard of precisely one first hand account of this being used for a truly terrible meal. The police were called and confirmed the dinner's rights.

Re: Stop Using The Cup of Coffee vs. $0.99 Cent App Analogy

#157
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The situation on the web is the opposite. People with real business problems can readily be convinced to lay out far more than they do in apps for a year for a web page that solves those problems. Case in point: teachers who want bingo cards to build a lesson plan for a single day's biology class.

The interesting thing to me is that the web seems to be a wholly different market than an app store. Getting me to pay even a dollar for an app in an apps store is tough, and frankly a bad bet. On the other hand, there's absolutely no way I'd pay a dollar for any app on the web. I assume that anything priced that low is a best trash and likely malware. If you want me to buy an app in an app store, you've got pretty m…

Hmm, getting me to buy a mobile app for $1 is really hard. I consider most of them time wasting toys.

On the other hand I'm perfectly happy to pay $15/month for a useful web service.

And on the desktop I have no problem with paying $50+ for serious software.

I guess mobile has (to me at least) that shovel ware image.

Re: Stop Using The Cup of Coffee vs. $0.99 Cent App Analogy

#158
post #47

Horrifying. The point about the coffee cup comparison isn't that cups of coffee are the benchmark experience for product pricing; if that were the case, my next root canal would cost $0.20. The point of the coffee cup comparison is marginal utility : the money you spend on an expensive cup of coffee almost certainly has very little utility at the margin, because you are happy to chuck it away for a bad cup of coffee.…

There is also a sort of price inversion principle going on with software that doesn't happen with physical products.

Say I make great coffee, I get the beans myself, I ship them by sailboat from Indonesia, and do everything by hand. People would expect to pay a lot of money for coffee like that, more than at Starbucks.

Say I make great software, I have the best designers, work for weeks on user interface details, and make a great web site to go with it. Quite apart from the general expectation that my software should be cheap, or free, there is a logical conclusion that if my software is so great I must be selling millions of copies, and at $10 a copy I'm charging way to much. If I'm selling millions of copies I should be able to price at a volume level. In economic terms my marginal costs are near zero, and if the app is so great that it is selling well then my fixed costs should be divided by a very large number.

So for physical goods, the better the product, the more you can charge. For software the opposite is often true.

At the other end of the spectrum there is software that is not expected to sell in huge volumes, and for educated purchasers they understand that these apps cost more. Probably most apps in the app store that are priced over $20 are in this category. Apple does a really bad job of supporting these apps though, theres no mechanism for trying before you buy, so the risk factor is large. If you are in a market that is well connected though, then this risk is lowered by word of mouth feedback. If your market is not well connected then you have a problem convincing users of your value.

We were in the top paid iPad apps category briefly with an app that was priced at $49, but our market for that app is small. We choose that prices based on an estimate of selling only hundreds of copies, to a user base that had already paid thousands of dollars for the required hardware for the app. We were competing against a $3 app at that time, but our assumption was that price would not be a large deciding factor for our user base, and we were right. We could invest more in the product because our price was realistic (I think) whereas our competitors had very little money to reinvest. They had to sell 15 times the volume to make the same revenue, in a small market, and that didn't happen.

Actually, what happened for the most part was that customers bought both apps. We got $35.00 from each customer and our competitor got $2.50. Once the purchase was made the price was mostly forgotten, it was the reliability and features that mattered from then on. If you do have a high priced app you'd better make sure that it works well.

Re: Stop Using The Cup of Coffee vs. $0.99 Cent App Analogy

#159
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the reluctance to pay for anything online is what explains prices like $0.99 - the developers are trying to pitch their apps as "almost free" or "just about free" - sneaking in under that impedance. The whole point of that price is to send a signal that this doesn't cost real money. So this price point is not accidental or unexpected. How developers can get out of this is a different question...

There are people here with much better scientific data to argue from, but my sense is that this is exactly the wrong strategy: the biggest hump is from "free" to "pay", and most points on the spectrum from 0.01 to "whatever a DVD movie costs" are similarly hard to sell at, all else being equal (market sabotage by people selling apps at 99 cents notwithstanding; don't build apps that will compete at 99 cents).

> market sabotage by people selling apps at 99 cents

The real sabotage comes from Apple who are encouraging 99c ents applications. It fits well in their strategy to commoditize software so their hardware becomes more appealing.

The problem is that this strategy works: For every "homeless" developer who gives up there are waiting 10 in line to flood the market with their 99 cent apps.

Re: Stop Using The Cup of Coffee vs. $0.99 Cent App Analogy

#160
post #47

Horrifying. The point about the coffee cup comparison isn't that cups of coffee are the benchmark experience for product pricing; if that were the case, my next root canal would cost $0.20. The point of the coffee cup comparison is marginal utility : the money you spend on an expensive cup of coffee almost certainly has very little utility at the margin, because you are happy to chuck it away for a bad cup of coffee.…

This has got more to do with production and consumption of a physical good as compared to a "virtual" good than anything else. The marginal utility you mention for coffee is derived from the physicality of the product - and thus I think the Starbucks vs. app comparison is invalid. The barrier to entry to create and deliver a software application is extremely low as compared to creating and delivering almost any physi…

      That's why RMS always said that charging for the
      act of software development is right. But charging
      for copies of the same stuff (and not providing its 
      source) is not.
While I understand the rationale behind this statement, it never felt right.

When designing a new car, a lot of money goes into research and development, money that cannot be recovered (sunken costs). However, once that's over and the assembly line is put together, the cost of creating new copies (while never zero) it definitely converges to the cost of the raw materials involved. The more items the assembly line produces, the cheaper it gets. And when buying a car, you're paying a lot more than that, because you're in fact buying a brand, not just some pieces of metal put together.

I also disagree on a car being "open-source". Assuming you can make copies of your car and give those to other people, you'll be obliterated by trademark, copyright and patent lawsuits. Also many car manufacturers are voiding your warranty if you go to unauthorized car repair shops. And if you can look under the hood, that's only because of strong consumer protectionism laws.

Apple has more than 50% profit margins on iPhones. Is that moral? Well, they need to earn a profit (otherwise they wouldn't be in this business) and they also need to pay the research and development costs for newer versions or for other products. And after all, this is capitalism - if you don't like it, buy from somebody else.

So why can't this rationale also work for pure software? After all, the developer needs the profit to develop newer versions, improvements or other applications from which you may also benefit. And again, this is capitalism. If you don't like it, search for something cheaper, or create your own.

RMS's principle (being paid only for creation of software, not for delivery of copies) does not work because it doesn't scale. You cannot put together an assembly line for software, like you can for physical products. This effectively means that you end up selling your time, which makes a good living, but it won't make you rich and it won't allow you to work on lots of silly things that may or may not pay off.

Also, only simple apps can be cloned easily. No software can currently match Adobe Photoshop, which still deserves every penny, and it wasn't for a lack of trying. I use Gimp because the price of Photoshop is too high for my amateurish needs, but I would shell out the cash for Photoshop in a heartbeat if I would be a professional photographer or designer.

The $.99 price tags is common just because the app stores are filled with crap, with most apps not even deserving $.99 - but create an app that enriches people's lives and even allows them to make some money, and you'll have no problem selling it for $90 or even $900.

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