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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#191

Post by mbell »

powrtoch wrote: post #12

I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is awesome . Everything we know about human psychology suggests that a disapproving peer group is a strong behavioral deterrent.

Do you really think someone that doesn't have the guts to walk up to another and say "cut that out" would have the guts to walk up and hand them a card effectively saying the same thing in text?

Personally I find the "just say something to them" approach to be far _less_ confrontational, you can do it discretely and one on one or perhaps just the small local group hears it. Handing someone a bright red/yellow card in what is likely a crowded area creates a spectacle. Many others know what is occurring, lots of pointing and whispering occurs, etc. This puts the receiver in a much more confrontational mindset especially if the receiver feels they did nothing wrong, now they don't have to defend themselves to you alone but to anyone within vision of the hand off, how would the receiver do that without really causing a scene?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#192

Post by sophacles »

brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

If it is just flirty, no it is not creepy. I am flirty, assertive and generally "a type" in a lot of social settings. I get rejected plenty. I've never been labeled as a creeper for this. I have become platonic friends with the women who I met by flirting with them, but weren't interested in my advances.

The creepy label is not about "some guy who isn't attractive to me is flirting with me". It is about "some guy keeps flirting/making advances even though I am not interested". And before the standard replies start cropping up:

* I am not a particularly attractive male

* I am not a mind reader

* I am not some sort of atypical nerd with "great natural social skills too"

* I am not just ignorant of what is said behind my back.

Basically, if you want to flirt without risking creepy, keep a few things in mind:

* Learn to understand non-verbal communication, it is 90% of flirting.

* Never (at first anyway) be overly direct. This is a 2 person mutual decision/consent game. At no point should you make the other person feel they have no input into the direction of interaction. Always start flirting subtle, because it respects the other person's right to reciprocate or disengage without confrontation or needing to defend them-self.

* It is ok if they aren't interested. It doesn't make you a creep in their mind, you being a creep makes that happen. Just back off as soon as you are aware of disinterest (see first bullet), continued flirtation after disinterest is communicated is what gets people the creep label.

* There are appropriate times and places for flirtation. Outside of that, creep label is a high probability. Learn these :)

I guess all of this is to say: being creepy isn't about flirting when a woman isn't attracted, it's about not following the socially OK norms of flirting and not respecting the rejection)

Final note: some women do just label guys who flirt creeps, just as some men label all women outside of church as "whores". They are not the norm, and don't worry about it, some people are just different, or hurt, or whatever, but it doesn't make their reality your reality.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#193

Post by ceol »

mindcrime wrote: post #152
gatordan wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should realize your comment - in a thread about counteracting sexual harassment towards women at conferences - is about how incredibly difficult it is to be a man. Nevermind how difficult it must feel to try to fit in as a minority group at a conference only to find yourself sexually harassed by a stranger. Appreciate how privileged you are when your worry isn't "i hope some random man doesn't try to grab…

I think you should realize your comment - in a thread about counteracting sexual harassment towards women at conferences - is about how incredibly difficult it is to be a man. Yes, I'm fully aware of that. I believe that part of solving the larger problem here involves both sexes having a better understanding of the position of the other. This is not as simple as "guys suck, you all need to change." Nevermind how dif…

Compared to being a woman, it is not difficult to be a guy. I'm not sure how you can look at this article about how so many women get sexually assaulted or harassed at tech conventions and think, "It's so tough being a guy."

Not all women are looking for a hookup every time they leave their house. If you hit on a girl at a convention, and she thinks you're creepy, it's your fault. You shouldn't be hitting on her.

You might come back with, "But what about all those girls who say it's creepy for one guy to hit on them but it's attractive for another? How am I supposed to know if I'm the creepy guy or not?"

To which I would reply... How many times has that happened to you? How many times have you been called creepy by a gal at a bar only to have her run off with another, more attractive guy who gave her the same exact line? I'd guess that happens pretty rarely, right? Maybe never?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#194

Post by s_baby »

demewmew wrote: post #149
s_baby wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proof? Some research suggests women are turned off from the "hard" sciences before they reach high school. It's likely a factor but you're putting the cart before the horse.

I think what agpen is trying to say is, "Statements like this are offputting to some people [women] who want to participate in tech." That's going to vary by the individual, but acknowledging that these statements have an offputting effect is proof in itself. Most people reading those statements aren't going to step in and say "this makes me not want to participate," because they know they won't be taken seriously. S…

Your statement is more sensible and on the fence. She's implying men are the root of women's problems in tech. That there is a conspiracy to marginalize.

Women have broken into countless so-called "boys clubs". Doctors, lawyers, marketing, etc... How is tech an exceptionally hostile environment towards women?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#195

Post by ceol »

blhack wrote: post #190
ceol wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Defending myself" implies the need to be defended. If she slaps you across the cheek due to you groping her, hitting her would not be justified . She wasn't continuously attacking you; she was responding to your assault.

My post was confusing. It was meant to say that my female friends' reaction was that if somebody assaulted them, they're not going to give them a red card, they're going to physically defend themselves.

Ah, understood.

I would like to see some sort of experiment between using these cards and slapping someone— although, slapping is pretty rare. What happens most of the time is the woman feels incredibly unsafe and awkward while she tries to understand the reason all those people are just watching her get assaulted.

So really, if you see this behavior, please step in. Tell the asshole he needs to get out. Make it known his behavior isn't appropriate.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#196

Post by demewmew »

protolif wrote: post #172
djahng wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying is this is how men behave and women should either put up with it and stop complaining, or stay home?

No, what I am saying is this is how drunk people act, and if one finds it too offensive, then the logical conclusion is to remove one's self from the equation, rather than demanding that the world change. You can't boil the ocean.

There are plenty of bars where, if that's how drunk people act, and the bar staff has any sense, then the drunk people get kicked out. The drunk people get kicked out because it's bad for business, i.e. if people are made to feel unsafe (and I think that's a far better term to use than "are offended") and their only option is to leave, the bar loses the business of many people opting out in favor of one or more drunk assholes. There are some obvious parallels here that, IMHO, only help the argument that bad behavior should be called out and corrected, not seen as a fact of life.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#197

Post by ahelwer »

cbs wrote: post #106
agpen wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rape-culture and patriarchy are definitely major society-wide issues but they undeniably find a special welcoming home within geek culture. A culture which supposedly prides itself on merit and intelligence at first glance ought to be most receptive to actually picking up a book and studying social issues, but the reality is instead that we get a social group full of men's right's advocates and evopsych true-believer…

> Rape-culture and patriarchy are definitely major society-wide issues but they undeniably find a special welcoming home within geek culture. Please cite your statistics. edit: Statistics that the geek culture provides a "more welcoming home" than society at large. I'm not disagreeing with the fact there are society-wide issues, I'd just like you to back up that particular assertion about geek culture. >A culture whi…

Do you really exist in such a vacuum that you haven't seen the problems geek culture has with women? Nobody here's going to do your reading for you. Head over to Google, type in "the problem with geek culture", and get reading.

There's also a great bunch of geek feminist blogs, which work to educate on problems in the community. Two particularly fantastic ones are Captain Awkward (http://captainawkward.com/) and Pervocracy (http://pervocracy.blogspot.ca/). You say you don't just want a fight, well here's your homework.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#198

Post by natrius »

gatordan wrote: post #46
brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

I commented heavily in the original HN thread because of comments like this. You're not defending the behavior... you're just saying women are literally asking for it. Theres this myth that men who are assholes succeed with women. I suppose they do technically succeed - in getting women with low self esteem to sleep with them through manipulation and "pickup artist" techniques. But how successful do you think they ar…

"I suppose they do technically succeed - in getting women with low self esteem to sleep with them through manipulation and "pickup artist" techniques."

"How successful do you think they are with bright, intelligent, worthwhile women who have their act together."

This trope is bullshit. People who respond to methods that you disapprove of are somehow less worthy people? Where's your evidence for this? This sort of insult shouldn't be any more welcome than the behavior this thread is supposed to be about.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#199

Post by jmelesky »

mbell wrote: post #191
powrtoch wrote: post #12

I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is awesome . Everything we know about human psychology suggests that a disapproving peer group is a strong behavioral deterrent.

Do you really think someone that doesn't have the guts to walk up to another and say "cut that out" would have the guts to walk up and hand them a card effectively saying the same thing in text? Personally I find the "just say something to them" approach to be far _less_ confrontational, you can do it discretely and one on one or perhaps just the small local group hears it. Handing someone a bright red/yellow card in…

"Do you really think someone that doesn't have the guts to walk up to another and say "cut that out" would have the guts to walk up and hand them a card effectively saying the same thing in text?"

Of course. An agreed structure around confrontation reduces the barriers and makes the whole thing easier. That's true of most interactions, not just confrontation.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#200

Post by [deleted] »

lifbar wrote: post #110
illuminate wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because being sexually harassed in the same manner as women do, regularly would give you some understanding and sympathy, not a point of pride to brag about as you are here.

"not a point of pride to brag about as you are here" Bragging? Really? Pointing out obvious thing that you all knights on high moral horses forgot - woman is not always victim. And if she is perpetrator she more often than not goes free (woman drugs husband, cuts off his penis - not guilty.) And I am "bragging" here BECAUSE "would give you some understanding and sympathy". I know how women fake their harassment to ge…

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