Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

schneier.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 267 posts

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#171

Post by wpietri »

picklefish wrote: post #65
powrtoch wrote: post #12

I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is awesome . Everything we know about human psychology suggests that a disapproving peer group is a strong behavioral deterrent.

Does red get you kicked out of the con or something? If not, this would turn into a game of who can collect the most harassment cards. If so, then people could simple kick out people they don't like.

Many cons are putting together anti-harassment policies that include sanctions up to and including lifetime bans.

I'm sure some trolls would be excited by the challenge. But I think these will often serve the purpose of letting somebody know that they have very clearly crossed a line and causing to think about their behavior.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#172

Post by protolif »

djahng wrote: post #147
protolif wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con?" This. Very much this. The formula is simple: Get a bunch of people drunk, and the lecherous ones will come out of the woodwork. This is not a problem unique to any particular field. In fact, I would go as far as to say this is a non-problem. I…

What you're saying is this is how men behave and women should either put up with it and stop complaining, or stay home?

No, what I am saying is this is how drunk people act, and if one finds it too offensive, then the logical conclusion is to remove one's self from the equation, rather than demanding that the world change. You can't boil the ocean.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#173

Post by jackpirate »

wpietri wrote: post #169
jackpirate wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons it's such a strong deterrent is that it is so difficult to confront someone in your peer group for doing something wrong. Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving. Maybe the card system will get people motivated enough to start disapproving, but I doubt it.

I would use these things in a fucking heartbeat. I'd bet others would too. One of the problems isn't lack of disapproval. It's being instantly prepared to confront the situation in a way that's helpful and effective. When I'm just going about my business, seeing something egregiously wrong often leaves me speechless for a bit. It'd be great to have these in my wallet to whip out and say, "Dude, yellow card!"

You say that, but we here on HN all know that what people say and what they actually do are rarely correlated. Maybe they could A/B test this at different conferences and find out.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#174

Post by wpietri »

blhack wrote: post #40

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…

Honestly, I don't care how common it is at bars generally. If it's my community, then I want this shit stopped.

Do you think some of those women would be willing to post here? There's nothing that says that women can't hand out these cards. Or that they can't be handed out to dudes harassing dudes.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#175

Post by cbs »

king_jester wrote: post #146
cbs wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rape-culture and patriarchy are definitely major society-wide issues but they undeniably find a special welcoming home within geek culture. Please cite your statistics. edit: Statistics that the geek culture provides a "more welcoming home" than society at large. I'm not disagreeing with the fact there are society-wide issues, I'd just like you to back up that particular assertion about geek culture. >A culture whi…

> Please cite your statistics. Rape culture seeks to describe why rape occurs and is promoted within a society. As per usual, Wikipedia has the overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture . EDIT: Another good resource I use for this same convo that happen inevitably someone mentions sexism in a male space like Hacker News: http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html > This is a hacker convention.…

Are you just looking to pick a fight?

I don't disagree with the parent post's point. I disagree with the way they are arguing it.

I can fully, 1000% get behind the statement that "Rape-culture and patriarchy are definitely major society-wide issues", but if they want to make the casual accusation that "they undeniably find a special welcoming home within geek culture", I'm going to fucking call you on it unless you can bring some proof.

Again, I'm not disagreeing that there is a problem, I'm disagreeing with the assertation that the hacker community "prides itself on merit and intelligence at first". That's it.

Again, I'm not saying that assault at defcon isn't a problem, what I am saying is that labeling a huge swath of people as "men's right's advocates and evopsych true-believers and other terrible terrible people", is in fact counter-productive. I was at defcon and wasn't even aware that sexual conduct there was a problem until I talked with a goon that saturday night. Does that make me a men's right advocate? Or a evopsych?

I see that you're just looking to pick a fight, I should have never taken the bait.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#176

Post by wpietri »

colmvp wrote: post #101
agpen wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When 1 in 4 men get sexually assaulted during their lives, I will start giving one iota of care about poor poor dis-empowered men.

How very sexist. I don't doubt that worldwide, men suffer sexual and physical assault from the opposite sex at a lower rate than women. However, in developed countries, I wouldn't be surprised if it's closer than we collectively think. Here is an informative article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/07/feminism... Men are probably less likely to report incidents due to humiliation or rather, lack of a…

Is there something about these cards that prevents them from being used regardless of the gender of the participants?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#177

Post by king_jester »

cbs wrote: post #163
king_jester wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, they are. Its just that any one isolated indecent of disapproval doesn't get much attention compared to incidents of scum. I'm not saying the levels of scum are acceptable, just that there is a disparity in which encounters get shared. We know that people have reported their first hand accounts of receiving harassment at multiple cons and multiple times per con. These incidents are not isolated. There is a str…

I'd like to ask that you re-read my post. You're talking past me. Given the subject matter I made a poor choice of words using "any one isolated" instead of "any individual", the later phrase is not associated with marginalizing harassment/assault and I should have used that instead. However, even with the poor choice of words I'm not trying to imply that the number of incidents is low enough to be swept aside, in fa…

The reason why people are reporting incidents where a harasser gets away with it is because most of the time they are getting away with it. Conferences are organized in a way that doesn't allow people to get help and stop this kind of behavior when it happens. As the article mentions, often there is no clear policy against harassment and security may even be in on the harassing behavior. Coupled with a lack of peers calling people out, its not a surprise that we see people relating their experiences of assault and harassment and explaining why they won't be going back to particular conferences.

I totally agree with you that as a community we need to call out our peers firmly and clearly when we feel safe to do so. As of right now that isn't happening and hacker conferences are not safe spaces for women. We are not creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of harassment by letting people share their experiences of those incidents. The only way we can combat the problem is to acknowledge its existence and listen to the experiences of those who suffered such behavior and attitudes. People should be absolutely free to relate their stories of calling people out and addressing such behavior, but let's not kid ourselves about the reality of what is going on at these conferences for women.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#178

Post by [deleted] »

sethg wrote: post #136
cbs wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

edit: I give up. Who was I to think that the fact 1-in6 men are sexually abused while underage was a quick and easy response to a remark that men are not sexually assaulted in any real numbers. I should have looked up the statistics on all demographics, because apparently that sexual abuse isn't good enough sexual abuse to refute the weight the parent poster was giving to the 1-in-4 women statistic. Thanks sethg, I s…

Right, but that’s during childhood, not as an adult going to work and attending technical conferences. I can think of only one person I’ve met since turning 18 who was, umm, skeevy to me in a sexual way, and that person was male. (He didn’t actually assault me, but I later learned that one MIT fraternity had nicknamed him “the NAMBLA man”, and a while after that there was an article in the school paper reporting that…

[deleted]

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#179

Post by hackinthebochs »

illuminate wrote: post #66
Achshar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to say your comment hits home for me. It's my personal opinion/observation that > the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. I have myself seen the so called "bad boy" attitude succeed in a number of situations in real life. This just gives wrong signal to other men. The so called double standard has no easy solution. Or an easy way to recognize it eith…

"I have myself seen the so called "bad boy" attitude succeed in a number of situations in real life." Those "bad boys" are interesting in ways that you are not. Still, who cares if you get the girl? You're not entitled to date any/every woman. You do not get to because you want to.

Downvoted because your posts are unnecessarily hostile to people who are posting innocent questions/observations.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#180

Post by protolif »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #114
protolif wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con?" This. Very much this. The formula is simple: Get a bunch of people drunk, and the lecherous ones will come out of the woodwork. This is not a problem unique to any particular field. In fact, I would go as far as to say this is a non-problem. I…

Please go read the original post and pay special attention to the bit where con security gives out awards for people who run around demanding that women show their tits.

I'd like to see some evidence before believing such a tale. If such punch cards did exist, then I'm sure that there would be a picture of one online. In other words: Screenshot, or it didn't happen.
Post reply on HN