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They're not strippers, and they're not hired. They're volunteers, and it was their idea. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... and http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...
Even so, it still reflects badly on the EFF. It might not have been their idea originally but they accepted the suggestion and gave it their approval.
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It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. Yep, and that makes it incredibly hard to be a guy. You're almost "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to flirting and initiating things. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to know - in advance - how someone is going to react. That said, there is a line somewhere, of behavior…
I think you should realize your comment - in a thread about counteracting sexual harassment towards women at conferences - is about how incredibly difficult it is to be a man. Nevermind how difficult it must feel to try to fit in as a minority group at a conference only to find yourself sexually harassed by a stranger. Appreciate how privileged you are when your worry isn't "i hope some random man doesn't try to grab…
Yes, I'm fully aware of that. I believe that part of solving the larger problem here involves both sexes having a better understanding of the position of the other. This is not as simple as "guys suck, you all need to change."
Nevermind how difficult it must feel to try to fit in as a minority group at a conference only to find yourself sexually harassed by a stranger.
Sexual harassment sucks whether you're a minority or not. I'm very sympathetic to the plight of women at conferences (and elsewhere) but not going to sit here and apologize for being male either.
Appreciate how privileged you are when your worry isn't "i hope some random man doesn't try to grab my ass" but instead "how am i supposed to know if this random woman wants me to grab her ass?".
Meh. We all have our own crosses to bear.
Is it really that difficult to be a guy?
Absolutely.
Is the line of sexual harassment (especially in the context of the articles examples) really that hard to figure out?
In the context of the examples cited in this article, I'd say "no." Which, if you read my original comment, I'd already made that point. In the more general sense, the absolutely is pretty much "it depends." Men have absolutely been accused of "harassment" for behavior that other people (including other women) would shake their heads at and go "WTF? That's not harassment at all." There's definitely an element of subjectivity in all this.
Are there problems that actually occur AT the defcon conference? Sounds like most of the anecdotes are from parties, where alcohol is a factor. Is defcon a conference or a party?
"where alcohol is a factor" So that changes the situation where some people don't want to be grabbed/touched/propositioned?
I'm just asking if the problem is the conference, or the parties, or if they're indistinguishable. The OP says that this boorish and unacceptable behavior is stopping women from attending the conference. And that it doesn't happen at other hacker conferences.
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>No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face Have fun explaining that to the cops (and the jury). "After I touched her inappropriately she slapped me, so fearing for my life, I punched her in the face , breaking her nose" Hell, if you do that you're likely to get punched in the face by a random passerby.
Um. What? "Somebody began physically assaulting me so I responded by defending myself." Find me a jury that will convict somebody for that.
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Absolutely. So you'd agree that what's over the line in one circumstance could be interpreted as harmless flirting in another. And that much of the time, the guy must guess where that line is and that he'll be wrong sometimes.
'what's over the line in one circumstance could be interpreted as harmless flirting in another.' Yes. You're allowed to greet your friends by hugging them if that's the kind of relationship you have with them. You are not allowed to greet a bank teller that way, or a canvasser, or most of the other people you encounter. The fact that what's appropriate in one situation is inappropriate in another situation is tangent…
For most people, yes. For some of the geekiest among us, I'm not sure that always holds.
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Instead of the red card if someone touches you inappropriately why not slap them in the face - hard.
This is exactly the consensus that all but one of my hacker friends, including the women, have come to. No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face, and most of the people here, since we're, you know, a community are going to physically remove you from the area. Edit: if this wasn't clear, the "I" in this story is would be my female friends.
Just because the groper deserves to get his ass kicked doesn't mean that doing so is legal.
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There was a time when I would've been the one writing that comment, so I know what you mean. It is frustrating for meek guys (I count myself as one too) to feel like we're being called out along with harassers. But ultimately I don't think what you're saying is accurate. It took me a long time to realize this because I didn't have very good data to work from--I didn't have a large set of observations of interactions…
In this thread we find relationship advice from geeks (average HN reader I presume). It is funny because I speak as one and HN is the last place I expect to read such comments. But saying "I'm sorry; I didn't mean to offend you. Could you tell me what about what I said bothered you? " is the most technical and least pro-flirty (is that even a word?) thing I have read in this thread. As a more technical person myself,…
However they deal with it at bars is how they should deal with it here.
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>No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face Have fun explaining that to the cops (and the jury). "After I touched her inappropriately she slapped me, so fearing for my life, I punched her in the face , breaking her nose" Hell, if you do that you're likely to get punched in the face by a random passerby.
Um. What? "Somebody began physically assaulting me so I responded by defending myself." Find me a jury that will convict somebody for that.
WHY does this topic come up so much in hacker/geek culture? Seriously, I'm starting to believe there are guys walking around who WANT to be slapped, just so they can finally live out their "equal rights mean equal lefts" fantasy.
Regardless, I don't like the idea of slapping someone. I think we can come up with a better idea, like the cards.