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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#51

Post by karinqe »

blhack wrote: post #40

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…

The cards could be given for any non-appropriate behavior, not just sexual harassment of women. Keep in mind that there are also some sexist women that can't behave themselves.

EDIT: The cards don't seem to be gender specific, though it is implied that they will be mainly used by females.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#52

Post by [deleted] »

phillmv wrote: post #4

>Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party. Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff (...) Or lastly, the man who, without prompting, interrupted my conversation and asked me if I'd like to c…

[deleted]

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#53

Post by edghf »

brianjyee wrote: post #17
sp332 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometime it comes very close to being that when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. That's because it's a personal, relationship kind of thing. Your behavior depends partly on the other person. There is no single set of rules that will cover all people, all circumstances, all the time. (For "polite company" or formal gatherings there are of course protoc…

Absolutely. So you'd agree that what's over the line in one circumstance could be interpreted as harmless flirting in another. And that much of the time, the guy must guess where that line is and that he'll be wrong sometimes.

'what's over the line in one circumstance could be interpreted as harmless flirting in another.'

Yes. You're allowed to greet your friends by hugging them if that's the kind of relationship you have with them. You are not allowed to greet a bank teller that way, or a canvasser, or most of the other people you encounter. The fact that what's appropriate in one situation is inappropriate in another situation is tangential, because...

"the guy must guess where that line is and that he'll be wrong sometimes."

is not really true. First of all, understanding how another human feels in a situation is not 'guessing.' As social animals, humans are excellent at reading cues from body language, facial expressions, etc. to understand how other humans feel.

Second, as a previous reply said, paying attention in your interactions with other humans is actually your responsibility. If you are the least bit perceptive, you are extremely unlikely to be wrong about 'where the line is.' And to go a little further in the you-really-shouldn't-feel-threatened-by-this vein, if you're one of the people who worries about crossing the line unintentionally, you've probably never been near it.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#54

Post by cbs »

wmf wrote: post #35
unreal37 wrote: post #11

Are there problems that actually occur AT the defcon conference? Sounds like most of the anecdotes are from parties, where alcohol is a factor. Is defcon a conference or a party?

There's been an ongoing semi-related discussion about whether conference parties should be treated as parties or as "work" events. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3841975

Wherever that discussion shakes out, anybody who has ever been knows that DEFCON isn't exactly a conference.

Sure there are talks, but kids don't run away from home to attend Black Hat Briefings.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#55

Post by chimeracoder »

danielweber wrote: post #23

Nerds (and I say this as one) have problems dismissing their anti-social members, because nerds have been dismissed from other social circles, and hated it. They don't want to be the bully. And so real asshole behavior is allowed to continue far longer than it ought to. The computer security industry has its own special problems. There is a very significant segment of the population that has "do whatever you can get…

Actions in what regard?

Adrian Lamo's reputation has certainly taken a hit.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#56

Post by mitsche »

brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

A lot of things "work" with women. But creeps act like they do because they're horny losers, not because they're having so much success with it.

Anyway, the whole alpha male debate is besides the point. Also, I think you're confusing aggressiveness with not being a complete wimp. I often see women being attracted to dominant, strong, self-confident guys. Aggressive ones? Not so much.

"It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment."

Almost? Oh really?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#57

Post by sp332 »

edghf wrote: post #53
brianjyee wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. So you'd agree that what's over the line in one circumstance could be interpreted as harmless flirting in another. And that much of the time, the guy must guess where that line is and that he'll be wrong sometimes.

'what's over the line in one circumstance could be interpreted as harmless flirting in another.' Yes. You're allowed to greet your friends by hugging them if that's the kind of relationship you have with them. You are not allowed to greet a bank teller that way, or a canvasser, or most of the other people you encounter. The fact that what's appropriate in one situation is inappropriate in another situation is tangent…

if you're one of the people who worries about crossing the line unintentionally, you've probably never been near it.

QFT. I was very intimidated by these discussions until I realized this point.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#58

Post by reinhardt »

phillmv wrote: post #4

>Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party. Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff (...) Or lastly, the man who, without prompting, interrupted my conversation and asked me if I'd like to c…

When such "women in IT" posts make it to the front page I'm usually rolling my eyes and think it's yet another PC guy/gal who chooses to be offended way too easily and made a mountain out of a molehill because some presentation slide alluded to porn or somesuch.

This on the other hand... wow, just wow. It's sexual harassment, no question about it, and should be dealt with and punished as such.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#59

Post by mnicole »

brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

People like people that are confident, and that is all there is to it. Aggression does not "work" unless you prey on someone's self-doubt.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#60

Post by philwelch »

stcredzero wrote: post #41

DefCon should follow the advice of the characters from Bizet's Carmen: Quand il s'agit de tromperie, de duperie, de volerie, il est toujours bon, sur ma foi, d'avoir les femmes avec soi. Et sans elles, mes toutes belles, on ne fait jamais rien de bien! In its day, it was probably a bit of socially accepted misogyny, but I think we can re-contextualize it here. If one engaging in strip club antics has no women as frie…

Any translation for the uncultured among us?
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