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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#141

Post by tjoff »

olihb wrote: post #21
brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

No. Women (and men) are attracted to assertive behavior, not aggressive behavior. Huge difference.

I'd venture to say that for a shy person the difference isn't necessarily that large, I can understand missing social cues when you are constantly ignoring warning signs just because you are out of your comfort zone.

(that said I will never understand nor defend the scenarios depicted in the article)

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#142

Post by sp332 »

s_baby wrote: post #135
sp332 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not strippers, and they're not hired. They're volunteers, and it was their idea. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... and http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...

The slut shaming is very ironic.

From a distance, it's not easy to tell the difference.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#143

Post by awakeasleep »

LeafStorm wrote: post #119
colmvp wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"DON'T TRY TO HIT ON WOMEN AT CONFERENCES OR OTHER BUSINESS/PROFESSIONAL ENVIRONMENTS AT ALL. PERIOD." But that is in itself IS a generalization. I have family members and best friends who met their SO's at conferences or in professional environments. Or you can look at famous people who met their SO's working on the same project.

You can meet a person and develop a relationship with them without hitting on them.

The point is, there isn't a sharp delineation. Thats what allows any uncertainty into the discussion, there isn't a hard and fast rule on what behavior is acceptable.

The real rule, is to start off completely polite, and judge your behavior based on your reception. You start talking about an interesting exploit, impress each other, and the next thing you know you're talking about more personal stuff. Or, someone gives you the cold shoulder, talk is awkward, and you move on instead of forcing things into a sexual context.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#144

Post by jamesaguilar »

reinhardt wrote: post #58
phillmv wrote: post #4

>Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party. Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff (...) Or lastly, the man who, without prompting, interrupted my conversation and asked me if I'd like to c…

When such "women in IT" posts make it to the front page I'm usually rolling my eyes and think it's yet another PC guy/gal who chooses to be offended way too easily and made a mountain out of a molehill because some presentation slide alluded to porn or somesuch. This on the other hand... wow, just wow. It's sexual harassment, no question about it, and should be dealt with and punished as such.

Based on your other comments in this thread, it's hardly surprising that you are quick to dismiss women's issues. Your attitude needs adjusting.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#145

Post by demewmew »

sethg wrote: post #124
FuzzyDunlop wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a feminist perspective, it's not very empowering to a woman to have to resort to props and other crazy schemes to get unscrupulous men to fuck off. Men don't have to do it, why should women. I think it'd be helpful to identify why this problem exists in the tech field. Is there a chicken and egg situation where more women in tech would solve these problems, but something about tech prevents more women getting in…

From a feminist perspective, it's not very empowering to a woman to have to resort to props and other crazy schemes to get unscrupulous men to fuck off. People who already have power do not need props and schemes, because, well, they have power. I know that if I grab my boss’s crotch during a meeting and he says ”you have thirty seconds to convince me not to fire your sorry ass right now”, every witness to the event…

So well said. When people don't take you seriously, clever hacks are the next best solution. The "What She Really Said" IRC bot story reminds me of this as well.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#146

Post by king_jester »

cbs wrote: post #106
agpen wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rape-culture and patriarchy are definitely major society-wide issues but they undeniably find a special welcoming home within geek culture. A culture which supposedly prides itself on merit and intelligence at first glance ought to be most receptive to actually picking up a book and studying social issues, but the reality is instead that we get a social group full of men's right's advocates and evopsych true-believer…

> Rape-culture and patriarchy are definitely major society-wide issues but they undeniably find a special welcoming home within geek culture. Please cite your statistics. edit: Statistics that the geek culture provides a "more welcoming home" than society at large. I'm not disagreeing with the fact there are society-wide issues, I'd just like you to back up that particular assertion about geek culture. >A culture whi…

> Please cite your statistics.

Rape culture seeks to describe why rape occurs and is promoted within a society. As per usual, Wikipedia has the overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture.

EDIT: Another good resource I use for this same convo that happen inevitably someone mentions sexism in a male space like Hacker News: http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

> This is a hacker convention. Not a thing-PG-recontextualized-hacker-as convention.

I didn't realize considering yourself a hacker was a license to violate other people.

> The broad brushes with which you paint are not helping. Laying inaccurate generalizations like this on the very people in positions to help solve the problem disenchants and disinterests them.

That women are not in positions to solve this issue or be empowered to not have to deal with these situations is the problem in the first place. If someone can't be interested in being a basic human being that provides a safe space for a conference, perhaps they should re-evaluate what they are doing and stop.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#147

Post by djahng »

protolif wrote: post #107
blhack wrote: post #40

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…

"It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con?" This. Very much this. The formula is simple: Get a bunch of people drunk, and the lecherous ones will come out of the woodwork. This is not a problem unique to any particular field. In fact, I would go as far as to say this is a non-problem. I…

What you're saying is this is how men behave and women should either put up with it and stop complaining, or stay home?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#148

Post by saraid216 »

fein wrote: post #139
rmc wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that mean that we shouldn't tackle it? No, this is our culture too, and we should fix it.

I completely agree! I just wanted to point out that the problem goes far deeper than a specific demographic. It's a societal issue on a national scale, possibly (probably) even more broad.

If you had any idea about this issues, you'd realize that we've been tackling them on a global scale.

But pronouncements from on high can only do so much, especially in an age when authority is so easily controverted; to suggest that tackling it inside hacker culture is somehow missing the big picture is missing the fact that it's part of the global effort, rather than incidental to it.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#149

Post by demewmew »

s_baby wrote: post #129
agpen wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THIS is what prevents more women from going into tech fields. From academia to the workplace, IT/CS has been built into a self-reinforcing boys club. Until on a large scale it is no longer socially acceptable for geeks to treat women like shit, there won't be many women in technical fields.

Proof? Some research suggests women are turned off from the "hard" sciences before they reach high school. It's likely a factor but you're putting the cart before the horse.

I think what agpen is trying to say is, "Statements like this are offputting to some people [women] who want to participate in tech." That's going to vary by the individual, but acknowledging that these statements have an offputting effect is proof in itself. Most people reading those statements aren't going to step in and say "this makes me not want to participate," because they know they won't be taken seriously. So instead they just leave.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#150

Post by withad »

sp332 wrote: post #117
danso wrote: post #81

From one of the comments: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... > Who I really wish would grow up at DEFCON is the EFF. Once again they have a fund raiser in which one of the prizes is a picture with one of the strippers DEF CON hires every year. Seriously?

They're not strippers, and they're not hired. They're volunteers, and it was their idea. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... and http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...

Even so, it still reflects badly on the EFF. It might not have been their idea originally but they accepted the suggestion and gave it their approval.
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