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Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

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Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#271

Post by nabla9 »

Gormo wrote: post #196
nabla9 wrote: post #150

It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. Current legislation allows the teacher to tell a student to put their phone away in a pocket or backpack, for example, where it will not be a distraction. The use of phones during breaks cannot be completely banned, as students have fundamental rights. The Constitution guarantees everyone…

> It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. It's a strange concept to hold that there are rights that can't be taken away, but then take them away merely by passing legislation.

That's how it is everywhere. Constitution gives rights, exceptions must be set by law.

You have free speech... then comes the list of exceptions, incitement of violence, defamation (libel and slander), Child pornography, perjury, speech integral to criminal conduct, copyright infringement, state secrets,

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#272

Post by fsloth »

constantcrying wrote: post #217
fsloth wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Child care? This is legally required school attendance for under 18 year olds. Most school days are way shorter than that. The curriculum seems to keep my kids intellectually engaged. Commenting as a finn.

[flagged]

Sure, different countries have different norms.

In Finland 16 olds are not allowed to drink and access to alcohol is state controlled.

IMHO learning foreign languages, math, history, biology and physics is not child care.

This is in preparation to getting access to upper secondary education (vocational or academic). Usually you start this at 16.

This is not a simple question but one part of the answer is that students are a) ready for upper secondary education b) their grades can be used to grade access to schools with top upper secondary schools being extremely hard to get into.

Ofc if you ask “why would a society do this” I guess the reason is that an educated population is expected to be more productive AND because the law requires schooling up to 18 it also implies all students must have access to free schools with close to zero material costs. So it’s intended also to level the playing field for all social classes.

Is this worse or better than germanys system is impossible for me to tell.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#273

Post by bmacho »

constantcrying wrote: post #147
watwut wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, you are the genius who knew it all before learning and got highest possible grades with no effort. Congrats. Overwhelming majority of people is not like that, they do not get highest grades, they do not get into gymnasium without effort, don't pass tests without effort.

Haha, are you serious?

I think so. And he is presumably right. You either

    - learned something -- aced the tests
    - had the opportunity to learn something -- didn't ace the tests but somewhy you still claim that you were bored
It is possible that neither happened, you just somehow knew everything. But that's highly improbable.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#274

Post by GuB-42 »

torpfactory wrote: post #70
GuB-42 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is: smartphones exist. The young adults these children will become will live in a world where smartphones are an essential part of their life. Using a smartphone is a practical skill. That's why I don't think banning smartphones is the best idea. It is probably better than unrestricted access, but I feel that school should teach how to use them well instead. It is a bit like with calculators, there are clas…

What’s the skill though? Most everything you do on a smartphone is trivially easy thanks to all those hard working app developers. We all know from experience that the vast majority of actual phone time is spent consuming some kind of media. I’m not at all worried about kids not learning to use a smartphone well enough- that part will sort itself out. It’s all the other (boring) skills that get pushed aside in the mi…

Using the smartphone a a useful tool while avoiding the mindless scramble for dopamine is the skill.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#275

Post by eitally »

constantcrying wrote: post #158
RandomLensman wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All students at university were unprepared from school or only some, i.e., performance of different schools, classes, etc. would be heterogeneous?

Curricula are standardized. All students experienced almost the exact same disconnect. This is also not some secret, all Professors know this and some try their hardest to bridge the gap.

Then this is a failure of the system in Germany, and does not reflect the experience of many American kids. Some, yes, but not all. Primarily, it's the "smart" kids who didn't have to work for good high school grades who have a bad time in university, not the kids in the fat part of the curve who more likely matriculated having already developed strong study skills. In my experience, at least, the biggest difference between high school and college is that high school teachers teach and homework is for reinforcement, whereas college professors expect self-learning to be the core method of pedagogy and their role is to reinforce and contextualize the topics. Switching from one mode to the other can be rough, no matter how innately intelligent a student is.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#276

Post by DocTomoe »

lupusreal wrote: post #2

Where they not already? In America they started off banned as soon as kids started getting them in the early 00s, but then some years later the bans became unenforced or even undone because, apparently, parents said that their kids needed phones because school shooters (which is a dumb argument.) But that shouldn't apply in Finland at all.

> kids needed phones because school shooters (which is a dumb argument.)

Considering the US is a country where two dozen cops stay out of a school with an active school shooter until they have run out of bullets ... yeah, it is. No-one wants to hear the local TV station run the dying screams of their children. Better not give them phones so they can call for help (or give the cops information, which would be pointless to begin with).

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#277

Post by rad_gruchalski »

constantcrying wrote: post #113
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don’t think that’s true. The 12 years of the pre-uni education set you up for being a member of society. You don’t see it because it became a part of you. You also learned to read, write, all basic math, geography, … The uni taught you more real-world expected skills but I‘m certain you learned more before uni.

Why couldn't I have learned university courses and these other skills at the same time?

I don’t know. Why couldn’t you?

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#278

Post by thomastraum »

RHSeeger wrote: post #172
PeterStuer wrote: post #3

If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

THIS is it.

even all the above reasons are not actual reasons. None of these are a problem. you job is NOT to bring something to school because she forgot it nor to drive her to school if the bus doesnt show up.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#279

Post by Aurornis »

adverbly wrote: post #221
nabla9 wrote: post #150

It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. Current legislation allows the teacher to tell a student to put their phone away in a pocket or backpack, for example, where it will not be a distraction. The use of phones during breaks cannot be completely banned, as students have fundamental rights. The Constitution guarantees everyone…

So wait did they ban it for teachers and staff as well?

What next? Are they going to let the teachers drive cars and smoke cigarettes while forbidding students to do the same?

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#280

Post by smaudet »

nabla9 wrote: post #271
Gormo wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. It's a strange concept to hold that there are rights that can't be taken away, but then take them away merely by passing legislation.

That's how it is everywhere. Constitution gives rights, exceptions must be set by law. You have free speech... then comes the list of exceptions, incitement of violence, defamation (libel and slander), Child pornography, perjury, speech integral to criminal conduct, copyright infringement, state secrets,

And hopefully the constitution sets some bounds on said restrictions...

Otherwise a constitution becomes ineffective at some point.

There are such things as unconstitutional laws and laws that should not be observed nor enforced...

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