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Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

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Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#651

Post by olyjohn »

spacebanana7 wrote: post #445
mbgerring wrote: post #431

I hope somebody building and selling microgrids and energy storage systems is ready to take advantage of this situation. Mass deployment of batteries at the grid edge is a great idea for a lot of reasons, but none more immediately compelling than "the power won't go out if the grid goes down."

It should be mandatory for critical infrastructure like ATMs to have 24hr batteries installed. And some sort of power backup to maintain internet access as well - even if it's just a matter of everyone being allocated a small amount of starlink data or public wifi. These things have relatively small costs, but make the system much more resilient.

What do you do when the ATMs run out of cash? It's not an unlimited supply in them.

You should probably just keep some cash on hand. And keep an FM radio and a few batteries on hand.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#652

Post by SoftTalker »

tonyarkles wrote: post #607
Symbiote wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A power station can start a decently large generator with batteries. Maybe there are other concerns for an oil rig.

Batteries are great when they have charge. What happens if the generator doesn't want to start the first, second, and third time? How many start attempts do you get before the batteries are dead? The hand-pumped air compressor is the tool of last resort. You can try an engine start if there's someone there who's able to pump it. You don't have to worry about how much charge is left in your batteries or whether or not…

The data center where I work has large diesel generators for power cuts. They are electric (battery) start. There is no capability to start them manually. The batteries are on maintenance chargers that keep them in good condition. The generators are started and tested every two weeks.

Could the batteries be dead and the generators not start? I guess but it's very unlikely. I get that on an oil rig it might be a matter of life and death and you need some kind of manual way to bootstrap but there's not much that's more reliable than a 12V lead-acid battery and a diesel engine in good condition.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#653

Post by tantalor »

oilman wrote: post #475
mike_hearn wrote: post #319

This sounds big enough to require a black start. Unfortunately, those are slow and difficult. If an entire nation trips offline then every generator station disconnects itself from the grid and the grid itself snaps apart into islands. To bring it back you have to disconnect consumer loads and then re-energize a small set of plants that have dedicated black start capability. Thermal plants require energy to start up…

In another life I worked as an engineer commissioning oil rigs and I’ve seen how tricky even a small-scale black start can be. On a rig, we simulate total power loss and have to hand-crank a tiny air compressor just to start a small emergency generator, which then powers the compressors needed to fire up the big ~7MW main generators. It's a delicate chain reaction — and that's just for one isolated platform. A full g…

> hand-crank a tiny air compressor

Is that what Dr. Sattler is doing in this scene from Jurassic Park?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoW4vXnkhJw

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#654

Post by petertodd »

SoftTalker wrote: post #645
oilman wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In another life I worked as an engineer commissioning oil rigs and I’ve seen how tricky even a small-scale black start can be. On a rig, we simulate total power loss and have to hand-crank a tiny air compressor just to start a small emergency generator, which then powers the compressors needed to fire up the big ~7MW main generators. It's a delicate chain reaction — and that's just for one isolated platform. A full g…

Hand crank? I'd think something like an oil rig would have a propane or gasoline or diesel generator with an electric start and batteries.

The point isn't to make a system that is easy. The point is to make a system that is guaranteed to work in any remotely realistic circumstance.

In a real black start, the guys might very well grab a portable generator and just use that instead. But having the option to hand crank something rather than rely on batteries that might run flat is good.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#655

Post by MisterTea »

Kkoala wrote: post #646
MisterTea wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the northeast blackout hit in 2003 in NYC I dont remember any panic. We still had house phones and they still worked in the blackout thanks to telcos being legally obligated to give a shit about reliability. I stopped by a friends house and we then went on a walk. Some stores were open and cash was accepted. We hung out later that night and had a few beers. The sky was amazing as there was next to no light pollu…

That sounds like the sensible reaction, at the time at least. It's interesting to think about and realize how much things have changed now though, and how reliant people are on everything, and especially their tiktoks etc. working all the time. Some of the panic is likely related to the war in Europe too, and especially the general talk about war

> Some of the panic is likely related to the war in Europe too, and especially the general talk about war

We were just two years removed from 9/11 so terror talk was the first thing that happened. We got that news from AM radio in our cars. Still no panic.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#657

Post by sponaugle »

genewitch wrote: post #633
martinald wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly it seems that the black start drill is considering a smaller zone of impact than what has happened here. Also I suspect there is far more renewables on the grid now than in 2016. This is potentially the first real black start of a grid with high renewable (solar/wind) penetration that I am aware of. Black starts with grids like this I imagine are much more technically challenging because you have genera…

Grid tied solar won't put power into the grid when the grid is down. It's the one reason I didn't grid tie. Non tied solar won't affect the grid at all. So this is a non-issue. Grid tie requires the grid to tie to, otherwise it can't synchronize. So it stays disconnected.

"Grid tied solar won't put power into the grid when the grid is down. It's the one reason I didn't grid tie."

Why would that prevent you from being grid-tie? I have 53 panels (~21kw) grid tied and pushing to the grid, but in the event of grid failure my panels will still operate and push into my 42kwh battery array which will power the entire house. ( The batteries take over as the 'virtual grid source). I can then augment the batteries with generator and run fully off grid for an extended amount of time ( weeks in my case ).

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#658

Post by Hydrocarb0n »

mlsu wrote: post #466
mike_hearn wrote: post #319

This sounds big enough to require a black start. Unfortunately, those are slow and difficult. If an entire nation trips offline then every generator station disconnects itself from the grid and the grid itself snaps apart into islands. To bring it back you have to disconnect consumer loads and then re-energize a small set of plants that have dedicated black start capability. Thermal plants require energy to start up…

Does solar power make this process easier or harder? I know that with thermal plants you have a spinning mass that you have to synchronize, and phase shift is used to assess how hard the plant is working (and whether to trip a disconnect as we see here) But with solar, how is the synchronization provided? In like a giant buck? Or in software somehow? Does the phase shift matter as much as in the electromechanical sys…

Harder mostly, See the frequency is set by huge rotating masses in the form of generators, and when the supply and demand is matched the frequency and voltage are stable, when demand dramatically increases it pulls the frequency and voltage down, which is effectively slowing the generators down as load / magnetic drag increases with current drawn. Having large inertial masses spinning actually helps smooth out frequency changes. whilst large solar farms can and do syncronise with the grid, they are reactive and do not add the same smoothing effect as humungous spinning masses.

Low Grid frequency & voltage can cause an increase in current & heating of transmission lines and conductors and can damage the expensive things, this is why these systems trip out automatically at low frequency or low voltage, and why load shedding is necessary

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#659

Post by Karawebnetwork »

What caused it? The Portuguese prime minister, Luís Montenegro, said that the issue originated in Spain. Portugal’s REN said a “rare atmospheric phenomenon” had caused a severe imbalance in temperatures that led to the widespread shutdowns.

REN said: “Due to extreme temperature variations in the interior of Spain, there were anomalous oscillations in the very high voltage lines (400 kV), a phenomenon known as ‘induced atmospheric vibration’. These oscillations caused synchronisation failures between the electrical systems, leading to successive disturbances across the interconnected European network.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/apr/28/spain-and-p...

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#660

Post by petertodd »

tantalor wrote: post #653
oilman wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In another life I worked as an engineer commissioning oil rigs and I’ve seen how tricky even a small-scale black start can be. On a rig, we simulate total power loss and have to hand-crank a tiny air compressor just to start a small emergency generator, which then powers the compressors needed to fire up the big ~7MW main generators. It's a delicate chain reaction — and that's just for one isolated platform. A full g…

> hand-crank a tiny air compressor Is that what Dr. Sattler is doing in this scene from Jurassic Park ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoW4vXnkhJw

That would be charging up the spring to throw the breaker. High voltage breakers need to switch on (or off) very quickly, to avoid damage from arcing. It's common for them to have some kind of spring or gas piston arrangement that you pump up first to give them enough energy to do that quickly.

Nice attention to detail by the filmmakers.

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