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Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

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Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#501
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A monkey took out the whole grid in Sri Lanka this year https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/13/asia/sri-lanka-power-outa...

If that's all it took to turn Srilanka off.Even if that country lags behind western Europe, what would it take for a few humans who intentionally cut off power. Trying to stay on the facts, this incident is likely accidental but some people even the very workers at energy companies could send a message for, I don't know. A pay raise?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent

Yes, you can try to hold the country hostage for your salary by going on strike, but that's the sort of thing that results in very energetic union-busting.

Actually sabotaging the infrastructure would result in terrorism charges, or at the very least the JSO treatment.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#502

I'm going with: never attribute to malice what can be explained by ... an incredibly complex system that can fall over even if no-one's being stupid. I would want very strong evidence before I believe this is an attack. There is precedent for major power outages, a huge majority of which are not malicious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages I remember the day when the Swiss railway power networ…

Update: BBC news says something something hot weather, EU council says it doesn't look like a cyber attack.

As confirmed by António Costa (President of the European Council) on X: https://x.com/eucopresident/status/1916859055546544517

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#503
post #411
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, we just told you that via Signal - that’s how we built the networks :) (No relation to the other infamous Signal chat :)) There should be 4-8 hours of battery backup on every site - at least.

Wow! Battery capacity has gotten cheap. It's always fascinated me during disasters how independent telecomm can be. Kudos for all the engineering that went into it! I.e. even when any other conceivable dependency is down, the networks keep running.

Old-school PSTN folks looked at XKCD 705 and chuckled. Late to the party, pal.

The telephone network was designed from the ground up to be completely independent of _everything_ except fuel deliveries. If grid power is up, that's convenient, but it's totally not required.

In many places, that's because telegraph and telephone lines got there before the power grid did. Lines running along railroads connected communities that had no centralized power generation. Delco-light plants at individual farms might be the only electric power for miles, aside from the communications lines themselves. Even if the only phone was at the rail depot, it still had to power itself somehow. As those communities sprouted their own telephone offices and subscriber lines branching throughout town, the office had its own batteries for primary power, and eventually generators to recharge them. (Telegraph networks largely ran from just batteries, recharged chemically rather than with generators, for years.)

Fast-forward a century and there was just never a need to depend on anything else. As long as the diesel bowser can get down the driveway, the office can run indefinitely.

Among old AT&T/Bell/WECo hands, the devotion to reliable service goes far beyond fanatical. Many offices built during the cold-war have showers in the basement and a room of shelf-stable food, though these are no longer maintained. The expectation was that whoever was in the office when the bombs dropped, would keep things running as long as they could. And when they couldn't anymore, well, there was probably nobody left to call anyway.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#504
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“induced atmospheric vibration” on 400KV lines is the current theory

Probably didn't help that before the outage hit, Spain was running its grid with very little dispatchable spinning generation, and therefore not much inertia. Solar PV/thermal + wind: ~78% Nuclear: 11.5% Co-generation: 5% Gas-fired: ~3% (less than 1GW)

> Solar PV/thermal + wind: ~78%

This is (a) incredibly impressive to achieve and (b) definitely the point at which the battery infrastructure needs to catch up in order to reduce the risk of such incidents.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#505

Grids are tricky, because the electric socket is kind of a leaky abstraction for heavy plant machinery in turbines of thermal plants, load balancing, synchronisation, and a gazillion other things I really don't understand. Is a grid built on renewables and batteries somehow more resilient? Solid state things tend to be less fiddly, hence my question. I remember reading at one point in the past that renewables were ac…

I'll give a somewhat simpler answer than Filligree has. The problem with renewable energy sources is that they are typically both highly variable and not dispatchable (i.e., controllable). The former leads to supply peaks that can exceed transmission capacity or supply lows that require compensating generation elsewhere. The latter means that energy generation can easily be increased or decreased as required, which i…

Yeah, hence I mention batteries specifically in my question. I guess a renewable grid will need a lot of batteries. And presumably these are highly dispatchable?

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#506
post #489
post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does solar power make this process easier or harder? I know that with thermal plants you have a spinning mass that you have to synchronize, and phase shift is used to assess how hard the plant is working (and whether to trip a disconnect as we see here) But with solar, how is the synchronization provided? In like a giant buck? Or in software somehow? Does the phase shift matter as much as in the electromechanical sys…

Mike_hearn's comment was grey but was correct: phase following is indeed done through software in the inverter. Phase matching is still required, wherever the phase difference is not zero there is a deadweight loss of power as heat. Currently the main driver of battery deployments is not so much energy price time arbitrage as "fast frequency fresponse": you can get paid for providing battery stabilization to the grid…

Oh that is fascinating.

So if you have a smarter solar panel, or a smart battery, you can stabilize the grid. I’m assuming that all of the traditional software complexity things in distributed systems apply here: you want something a little bit smart, to gain efficiency benefits, but not too smart, to gain robustness benefits.

My intuition is that bringing the market into it at small timescales probably greatly increases the efficiency significantly but at the cost of robustness (California learned this “the hard way” with Enron)

> Phase matching is still required, wherever the phase difference is not zero there is a deadweight loss of power as heat

If the electronic controller is “ahead of” (leading) the grid, then that heat would come from the solar plant; if it is “behind” (following) then that heat comes from the grid. Is that right? And likely, solar plants opted for the simplest thing, which is to always follow, that way they never need to worry about managing the heat or stability or any of it.

I wonder if the simplest thing would be for large solar plants to just have a gigantic flywheel on site that could be brought up via diesel generators at night…

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> thin air Except for the mountain of evil, violent, underhanded and illegal stuff Russia keeps getting caught doing, and has so far escaped scot-free due to Western cowardice?

No, they were suggesting attacking it based on speculation about this specific event, so yes out of thin air. I agree that Russia is evil, but saying that it got away with it Scot free is just insane. In fact it even plays into Russian propaganda, to say that nothing really harmed them even after the past 3 years of international sanctions and consequences. And western cowardice? Apart from nuclear war (which I'm gla…

> Apart from nuclear war

> It's also funny when war mongers online talk about cowardice

> Why dont you go volunteer in Ukraine if you're such a non coward?

This is an impressive feat. You've managed to package not one -- not two -- but THREE Russian propaganda talking points into a single paragraph. I believe I've just witnessed the second coming of Alexander Pushkin.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#508
post #10

Portugal has no electricity as we speak. Funny enough telcos and 4G/5G are fine for now, I'm guessing batteries and diesel backups kicked in and are doing their job.

There is still no electricity, at least in my neighborhood in Lisbon. Less noise, more human voices outside. Time to meet some more neighbors I guess.

Update: still no electricity, 4G/5G is barely working, city is more chaotic than usual but not that dramatic as some media say - there are huge queues to the buses and smaller shops that are still working, more people are outside.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#509

To remember: in the early hours of this morning there was a huge purchase/transfer of monero that increased the price +30% (highly unusual) and a few hours later before lunch time we see Iberia disconnected from the grid. Monero is the favorite payment coin when ordering real cyber attacks.

How do we know there was a huge purchase? Monero can't be tracked.

Because to buy that much monero so fast is only possible with bitcoin, which is traceable by governments and interested parties.

An estimated 305 million USD of monero were purchased this morning before the grid shutdown. That was a +50% increase on the monero price, something that never happened before in the last 11 years of the coin.

Quite a record. Quite a coincidence.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You require inertia in the grid to maintain frequency and other stability stuff. Solar PV is great but is mostly grid-following so cannot operate on it's own. As I understand it you need a minimum fraction of power generation to be large spinning turbines. I think this problem can be mitigated with add-on rotational mass style kinetic energy batteries or something like that. I don't think variable energy pricing will…

Large Inverter Based Resources (IBR) such as huge solar parcs, grid-scale batteries or high-voltage direct-current (HVDC) lines can be programmed to behave like rotating generators, or even to smooth out smaller ripples. They also don't necessarily need a leading grid frequency but can be used to generate their own frequency normal to cold-start or resync a grid. Only "small stuff" IBRs need a leading frequency from…

While this is plausible, this solution works in the world of simulations.

We do not have a solid understanding of how inverter-based fast frequency response works with an existing grid that uses physics-based inertia.

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