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Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

bbc.com

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Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#481

Post by p_l »

ethbr1 wrote: post #411
rcarmo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, we just told you that via Signal - that’s how we built the networks :) (No relation to the other infamous Signal chat :)) There should be 4-8 hours of battery backup on every site - at least.

Wow! Battery capacity has gotten cheap. It's always fascinated me during disasters how independent telecomm can be. Kudos for all the engineering that went into it! I.e. even when any other conceivable dependency is down, the networks keep running.

Depending on country there are sometimes very strict requirements - or just traditions sometimes - around building up strong survivability in face of total loss of grid power. Including diesel and turbine generators on bigger BTSes let alone exchanges. If you drop capacity per terminal (so bandwidth) you can cover a lot more range at times which helps with mobile network resiliency.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#482

Post by geophile »

red_admiral wrote: post #253

I'm going with: never attribute to malice what can be explained by ... an incredibly complex system that can fall over even if no-one's being stupid. I would want very strong evidence before I believe this is an attack. There is precedent for major power outages, a huge majority of which are not malicious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages I remember the day when the Swiss railway power networ…

But there is so much highly motivated malice right now.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#483

Post by luke-stanley »

luke-stanley wrote: post #427

For offline messaging over Bluetooth/Wi-Fi without internet or central infrastructure, I saw these recommended by ChatGPT Deep research and they seem current: Bridgefy (Android & iOS) – direct Bluetooth mesh within ~100 m, instant one-to-one & group chat, <1 min install. Berty (Android & iOS) – E2E-encrypted over Bluetooth/Wi-Fi; Briar (Android) – E2E-encrypted over Bluetooth/Wi-Fi with Tor fallback. Manyverse (Andro…

Whoever downvoted, a comment explaining why would be nice, when the cell tower generators are out, and there is only phone battery left, offline communication options could be useful, I'm glad I'm not in that position right now.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#484

Post by egorfine »

mike_hearn wrote: post #319

This sounds big enough to require a black start. Unfortunately, those are slow and difficult. If an entire nation trips offline then every generator station disconnects itself from the grid and the grid itself snaps apart into islands. To bring it back you have to disconnect consumer loads and then re-energize a small set of plants that have dedicated black start capability. Thermal plants require energy to start up…

Ukraine can share some experience with forced black starts.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#485

Post by ajmurmann »

padjo wrote: post #448
chippiewill wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The frequency aspect of a black start is presumably a bit easier in Europe because there's an interconnected synchronous grid so they can bootstrap it from France essentially. It's far more problematic for the UK because all the interconnects are DC.

I was recently told by an electrical engineering lecturer that the black start plan here in Ireland is to use the DC interconnectors with the UK to provide startup power to a synchronous generator.

Did he mention the UK's plan in case they have a full blackout?

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#486

Post by red_admiral »

red_admiral wrote: post #253

I'm going with: never attribute to malice what can be explained by ... an incredibly complex system that can fall over even if no-one's being stupid. I would want very strong evidence before I believe this is an attack. There is precedent for major power outages, a huge majority of which are not malicious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages I remember the day when the Swiss railway power networ…

Update: BBC news says something something hot weather, EU council says it doesn't look like a cyber attack.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#487

Post by nunobrito »

To remember: in the early hours of this morning there was a huge purchase/transfer of monero that increased the price +30% (highly unusual) and a few hours later before lunch time we see Iberia disconnected from the grid.

Monero is the favorite payment coin when ordering real cyber attacks.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#488

Post by beAbU »

padjo wrote: post #448
chippiewill wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The frequency aspect of a black start is presumably a bit easier in Europe because there's an interconnected synchronous grid so they can bootstrap it from France essentially. It's far more problematic for the UK because all the interconnects are DC.

I was recently told by an electrical engineering lecturer that the black start plan here in Ireland is to use the DC interconnectors with the UK to provide startup power to a synchronous generator.

With the new wexford-wales interconnect that went live last month, and another one planned from Cork (?) to France things might be even easier in the near future I reckon.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#489

Post by pjc50 »

mlsu wrote: post #466
mike_hearn wrote: post #319

This sounds big enough to require a black start. Unfortunately, those are slow and difficult. If an entire nation trips offline then every generator station disconnects itself from the grid and the grid itself snaps apart into islands. To bring it back you have to disconnect consumer loads and then re-energize a small set of plants that have dedicated black start capability. Thermal plants require energy to start up…

Does solar power make this process easier or harder? I know that with thermal plants you have a spinning mass that you have to synchronize, and phase shift is used to assess how hard the plant is working (and whether to trip a disconnect as we see here) But with solar, how is the synchronization provided? In like a giant buck? Or in software somehow? Does the phase shift matter as much as in the electromechanical sys…

Mike_hearn's comment was grey but was correct: phase following is indeed done through software in the inverter. Phase matching is still required, wherever the phase difference is not zero there is a deadweight loss of power as heat.

Currently the main driver of battery deployments is not so much energy price time arbitrage as "fast frequency fresponse": you can get paid for providing battery stabilization to the grid.

(for the UK not Spain: https://www.axle.energy/blog/frequency )

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#490

Post by CGMthrowaway »

padjo wrote: post #451
red_admiral wrote: post #253

I'm going with: never attribute to malice what can be explained by ... an incredibly complex system that can fall over even if no-one's being stupid. I would want very strong evidence before I believe this is an attack. There is precedent for major power outages, a huge majority of which are not malicious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages I remember the day when the Swiss railway power networ…

“induced atmospheric vibration” on 400KV lines is the current theory

Probably didn't help that before the outage hit, Spain was running its grid with very little dispatchable spinning generation, and therefore not much inertia.

Solar PV/thermal + wind: ~78%

Nuclear: 11.5%

Co-generation: 5%

Gas-fired: ~3% (less than 1GW)

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